HHF says: Sauber already using TC!!!!!!

[steve nielsen]

Frentzen airs Sauber traction control fears


“Heidfeld would pull away under acceleration, which was strange as I could hear the engine misfiring”


Jordan’s Heinz-Harald Frentzen has questioned whether Sauber was using a form of traction control during last weekend’s Australian Grand Prix.

The Swiss team, which uses last year’s Ferrari engines re-badged as Petronas, got both its cars home in the top six places with drivers Nick Heidfeld and Kimi Raikkonen sandwiching fifth-placed Frentzen.

Speaking on his website, Frentzen – who had been running third in the opening stages until being punted into a spin by Rubens Barrichello’s Ferrari – couldn’t understand why the Saubers were so difficult to pass.

“I got stuck behind Raikkonen’s Sauber for a long time,” he said. “I hoped I could get ahead in the pit stops, which I managed to do, by this time for sixth place.

“Heidfeld was the next car ahead and, even though I managed to catch him quite quickly, I knew passing him would be another matter. I don’t know if traction control comes as a factory option with Ferrari engines, but every time I got close in a slower corner he would pull away under acceleration, which was strange as I could hear the engine misfiring!”

Both Saubers passed post-event scrutineering, and the FIA, the sport’s governing body, is allowed access to engine management software at all times during a Grand Prix weekend. Traction control is banned until next month’s Spanish Grand Prix
_________________________________


MMMMMMM.... could HHF be right about this??

if he is, are Ferrari and Prost bending the rules too??

BTW:from autosport.com

[Maximum F1]

I don't see why sauber would risk it. The traction control will be allowed soon enough. Why risk getting caught for the sake of a few races. But then again, that does sound wierd.
-------------------------------
Maximum F1

[Maximum F1]

Also, you have to admit...it would be hard to hear another engine misfiring..with a helmet like that on, a fire retardant hood and your own V10 behind u!
--------------------
Maximum F1

[Speed]

Good point MF1, and the earphones too.

[Valve Bounce]

I just could not understand the logic of waiting until Spain to introduce trax instead of at the beginning of the season. Now I wonder which team(s) had lobbied for the delayed introduction.

[Maximum F1]

Does anyone know their actual reason for waiting until Spain, as VB says, it seems illogical.

[Valve Bounce]

"Both Saubers passed post race scrutineering....." This raises a very interesting point: is it possible to erase sections of computer controlled engine mapping that acts as trax? Don't forget, the FIA was pretty sure that one of the teams was using trax two years ago but was unable to catch them. It was the inability to detect the use of trax that ultimately lead to the FIA caving in to its use this year.
AS far as whether agent 0057 was able to hear the Sauber's exhaust from behind, suppose if anyone was that close to the exhaust pointing right at you, you are bound to hear something through the helmet and earphones. Not having been near a track for such a long time, I can't say how loud hte exhaust is, except that I realise the engine noise is filterred so that we can hear Murray in the broadcast.

[Maximum F1]

I suppose it all depends on how bad the engine is misfiring, but i don't think the sauber could have been misfiring bad enough for frentzen to hear it over the noise of his own V10! On the other hand if he had have been behind the Benetton of Fisi I would understand him hearing things as it was effectively a v8 for a very large part of the race!
--------------------------------
Maximum F1

[Jeanburrasca81]

Well...I think not only Sauber are using TC...Fia just had to legalize it from Spain onwards cause they knew everyone already used it...lol...I love the theories of total corruption in F1...lol. But who knows if I'm right!

[Ken]

You can hear others cars no problem . The engines are so load that is is like a rock concert , if you remember the USGP from last year everyone said how load the cars are. Also you are dealing with pro drivers that any sound feeling etc is picked up by them.
As for the 5 race TC ban , Ferrari and friends voted against the intro from race one. As many drivers, owners, have said it was a BS call to let Schu get a 50 point lead. This has been mentioned on Atlas News, Autosport, and other web sites. I believe it to be true and have turned my attention to Cart.

[Mania]

Frentzen is just whining which is something he`s been doing quite regularly since the testing season during the winter. About how Ferrari,Mclaren,Williams have better techonology, resources - blah blah blah - too bad you could`nt cut the mustard when you were with Williams Heinz.

As for traction control, I seriously doubt it. Heidfeld got better acceleration through most of the corners, whereas Frentzen was sliding all over the place. He came close on one occasion and Heidfeld held his nerve well - after that it seemed as if Frentzen was just to shaky to get any traction out of the corner. Perhaps his spin affected his balance - or maybe Frentzen was just not good enough. I dont think traction control had anything to do with it.

[Gt_R]

Could it be due to the closer low gears or More downforce that leads to the Sauber being able to just pull slightly ahead of the Jordan? Last year's Ferrari engine was kind of known for its great drivability, and it would not be surprising that the Ferrari is more capable in putting down its 830bhp through the rear wheels better than the Honda. Furthermore, Heidfield looks like a pretty smooth driver in Aust, and his car seems to handle pretty well, thus it would be logical for the Sauber to accelerate ahead as it can accelerate earlier.

I'm just opening up some alternative reasons for HHF's (ANOTHER) complaints...

[Liz]

HHF is just taking up the next verse of Ron Dennis' national anthem: "Ferrari is Cheating/Our Protest Is On File." Now it is "All Cars Using Ferrari Engines Are Cheating..."

But Niki Lauda said Ferrari is cheating; when asked why the wait to Barcelona, he replied, "Ask Jean Todt, I'm sure he would have some sort of explanation..."

My next questions is, why didn't it help Prost?

[Orange]

As ambivelant as I am towards to old Heinz-Harald, this sounds like a textbook case of Sour Grapes... Feeling his age, when he's lead by a second yearer, and chased by a rookie in arguably inferior cars. Hmmmm, if this is a slow decline (or even just a bad race) I hope Frentzen will have a little dignity...

[Valve Bounce]

But Niki Lauda said Ferrari is cheating; when asked why the wait to Barcelona, he replied, "Ask Jean Todt, I'm sure he would have some sort of explanation..."

OK, this together with agent 0057's comments which were reported in autorace.com are very strong accusations.
My question here is that the FIA knew somebody was using TRAX before, but were unable to catch them. Why is that? I am also suspicious why Ferrari wanted trax to be introduced after Spain.

[Airhead]

It all sounds as if there could be something going on. Nick H is suddenly so good, was last years Prost that bad, performance wise, unreliability aside? Then if the ferrari powered cars were equipped with Traction Control, why was the Prost so relatively uncompetetive?

Could it be that Alain didn't have enough money to tick that particular option box?

As for why introduce it from Spain on. If Traction Control is being allowed from Spain, and you had a system already, you would be silly indeed not to use it now. Especially as the reason for allowing Traction Control is that the FIA can't police if teams are using it or not. There seems the opportunity for a team manager to make advancements on a system that will be legal for very little risk of being caught.

Finally, is Heinz-Harald a whinger? I don't believe so, not normally. Did he make a huge deal out of Rubens punting him off. Not really. And if Nick H was so much smoother to look at, and quicker - this would lead weight to Heinz-Harald's agrument, not detract from it.

[Don K]

Originally posted by AMoffat
Nick H is suddenly so good...

As far as I remember, Heidfield outperformed Alesi last year, while the team was favouring Alesi.

If we consider Alesi to be a very good driver, then it seems that Heidfield must be also very good, and last year's Prost was not good at all.

If this year's Prost is not as good as this year's Sauber, it doesn't necissarily mean that the Prost chassis is not as good as it is supposed to be. Remember Sauber has been working with the Petronas-engine before.


Don K

[angst]

Is everybody in denial here?
What is the reason that the FIA have agreed to re-introduce traction control? - because the FIA and everybody involved is aware that certain team(s) is/are/have been using traction control, completely against the rules but impossible to prove (because clever programmers know how to 'hide' the files involved).
I'm not going to make any accusations as to who I think it is, though I have a very strong feeling about it. But I will pose the folllowing questions.
Which car/engine put it's power down particularly well?
Which car was particularly good in comparison to others in changing weather conditions?
Which team(s) vetoed the introduction of traction control until Spain?

[Airhead]

Angst (an appropriate nick name too),

I am not in denial, in fact I thought my last post coincided with your feelings perfectly.

There is enough here for us to smell a rat. And I don't mean Lauda.

[angst]

AMOFFAT - sorry if you got the wrong end of the stick there (or should I say, sorry if my language didn't convey my true intentions). Everybody is not what I meant. There are alot of posts on this subject that seem to deny the obvious, and as usual point toward someone (in this instance Frentzy) as a whinger. 2+2=4 no matter how many slants are put onto it. All the clues are there, and there are some who will not accept what is and has been going on in F1.

[Red]

Most definitely this is Heinzy’s year. (He’s looking for victory in Malaysia by the way) What exactly would be the benefits for Sauber? I don’t think they want to win the championship in the first four races, but certainly risk to screw it big time if they’re caught even though they’re using Ferrari engines.

I’ll try to answer Angst’s questions:
1. Which car/engine put it's power down particularly well?
Well........ McLaren? (By the way, you forgot one question: which car/engine had blinding starts last year? Well....... McLaren and Villeneuve?)
2. Which car was particularly good in comparison to others in changing weather conditions?
My guess will be that Ferrari no.3. I say Schumacher is illegal, let’s ban him.
3. Which team(s) vetoed the introduction of traction control until Spain?
Ferrari, Sauber and Prost. It’s funny. Or stupid. Or both. If I were a cheater, knowing that the referee will never accuse me (it’s already proven fact ), now why would I want to allow my (unfair) advantage to be blown away?

PS: Max did not say that one of the teams was using TC during 1999 season. They said that during preseason testing they found some irregularities on one team. They thought (they were not sure!) that this technology could be applied in real racing, but had no concrete evidence and took no further actions. Just told them to behave. Last year someone asked a good question. Which car performed remarkably well in ’99 and execrably in 2000? Hmmmmmmm.......... Jordan and Stewart Grand Prix?

[EERO]

Several points have been raised that all seem to be dancing around the truth. I'm convinced that the reality of the issue has been touched upon in this thread and all it requires is a synthesis.

First, regarding the character of Frentzen, I really don't have the impression that he is whiner/whinger. He actually strikes me as a pretty level-headed guy who gets on with business and doesn't point fingers. Recall his response to Williams when they treated him so shabbliy? Neither do I; he was pretty silent. If HHF is speaking out, I am willing to bet he has good reason.

Heidfeld is a very gifted driver who was cursed to drive for a team last season which had its collective head shove firmly up its....
Alesi couldn't do anything with that car, and Heidfeld often did a little better.

Despite early testing promise, Prost is not going to experience a major improvement this season. They will be better, but it won't be a breakthrough.

Sauber has by now, a long-standing relationship with Ferrari.
Consider the possibility that Sauber vs. Prost offer to Ferrari, a neat little test of a future Traction Control System with Sauber as the Guinea Pig and Prost as the Control. I am not saying that Ferrari and Sauber are engaged in illegal use of the system prior to the Spanish GP, but there sure as heck is good reason to be experimenting.

[Mania]

I suppose Villernerve and Mclaren's "great starts" are due to talent alone and Michael's performance in the wet is due to traction control. Whatever .


As for Frentzen, I stand by my earlier assesment - he`s a whiner. As for him looking for a win in Malyasia...

[Gt_R]

Yeah..its remarkably stupid to accuse a team (ESP FERRARI) of cheating just because they did better than the others in certain areas and win. Sore losers maybe?

But what the ^%$#*??? THEY SHOULD PERFORM BETTER because they are one of the best funded teams and they have all the best people in their stable...

Now, Mclaren last year was excellent in their starts (with almost nil wheelspin) and its surprising why none of the same critics who claim to be unbiased are accusing them of using traction control. Same for Villeneuve. Because the people who are accusing Ferrari are plain Anti-Schumacher individuals who are jealous of his success and are out to discredit it quickly so as not to burst their own silly ego???

Ferrari vetoed the plans to introduce TC at the start is because they strongly believed that one of their rivals had a headstart in the developements of the system. Knowing that such a headstart would hamper their WC-defending chances, they wanted to push the introduction back so they themselves could work out a similarly competitively TC system for use by then.

In case you are wondering which is THAT rival, Ferrari believed that Mclaren has a superior traction control system. NO, I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT MCLAREN IS CHEATING LAST YEAR. But the usual TC system is using the engine valves to lower power to maximize traction when the need arrives, to get rid of wheelspin. But Ferrari thought that Mclaren had came up with a totally new idea of TC which does not compromise the power output, but instead, uses the transmission (or sorts) to increase traction, which is a real superior system to that the other teams used. Thus Ferrari wants to improve their own system before they are allowed to use it.


By the way, anyone who thinks that Ferrari cheats with TC, why are the Ferraris so poor in their starts last season compared to Mclaren?

And if it is possible that FIA is biased and Ferrari cheat with TC just because they performed in greasy conditions, does it mean the Mclaren team in 1998 was using a 5-litre engine because their engine is so much superior in terms of horsepower over the rest of the field???

BLEEAHHHHH

[JeremySmith]

GT_R

You have said it all..I TOTALLY agree with you...anyone watching Ferrari starts last year would have noticed lot's of wheel spin...Strange how the Maclaren's never experienced the same problem at any race???? Strange that, is it not!