Cats from 2009

**Tim Falce** · 1 Aug 2007, 15:27 (Ref:1978317)

Just read in Motorsportsnow that catalytic converters will need to be fitted to all production based saloon, touring and sports cars including specialist and kit cars produced after 1999. Is there any point if you are using carbs and no ECU?

ss_collins · 1 Aug 2007, 16:30 (Ref:1978362)

What thats bonkers (for the reasons Falcy has pointed out)

Does this include Sports Racing cars too? not had the post today so not cgot a copy yet

**Tim Falce** · 1 Aug 2007, 17:48 (Ref:1978418)

It says "All production based saloon, touring and sports cars, including specialist production and kit cars manufactured after 31/12/99"

GordonG · 1 Aug 2007, 19:18 (Ref:1978488)

This seems a bad idea. My thoughts:

1. Cats are expensive - hundreds of pounds a pop?
2. They are a consumable item, whose life gets radically shorter when exposed to unburnt hydrocarbons (petrol, oil).
3. Since the cat sits in the exhaust and poses a restriction, I bet that by spending more money you can reduce the performance less.
4. Given that the car doesnt like unburnt fuel or oil, racers on a tighter budget may have to run a more conservative mixture at the sacrifice of a bit of power compared to moneybags who desnt mind replacing his cat n times a season.

So, we're significantly increasing the costs of going racing (again), and adding another area for the chequebook racer to benefit. I wonder what the environmental impact of producing and consuming (wrecking) so many cats is?

Further, the rule as drafted is poor even by Blue Book standards.
1. How are the scruits to determine the manufacture date of an unregistered kit car racer?
2. even a correctly road registered car (up to the present day) that was initially built with an engine from pre-1995 need not run a cat on the road as the emissions limits are far looser. the engine can then perfectly legitimately be changed for a later motor without changing the emissions requirements or requiring a cat.

This compounds the third problem area, which is that you may get 21st century cars, restricted by a cat, racing against pre-99 cars without a cat (and therefore able to run a free exhaust and several extra horses).

Surely, if the MSA wants to play to the green lobby there are better, more effective ways? Promoting KERS (recovering energy from braking energy) in certain classes for a start. Finding ways to allow alternative fuels in club motorsport? Both things that would potentially advance the environmental technology and improve the emissions of cars in general, which would have a far greater effect than cats on the small number of race cars doing relatively miniscule mileage.

The rule is apparently "for consultation via Motorsports Now! (sic)". Anyone know how we go about making our views heard (if you'll pardon the mixed terminology)?

G

JimW · 1 Aug 2007, 20:46 (Ref:1978568)

I note that the proposed rule has no mechanism for determining whether the cat you fit is working or not. I forsee a good market for secondhand (duff) cats.

Regards

Jim

GordonG · 1 Aug 2007, 20:52 (Ref:1978572)

well I think cats get more restrictive as they get older/duffer, but the point is good: one of the easiest performance improvements to a catalysed car is to drill out the guts of the cat.

The only way to enforce the spirit of this rule would be emissions testing at the circut. God, it's hard enough getting your road car through the MOT emissions test...

G

**Tim Falce** · 2 Aug 2007, 08:13 (Ref:1978838)

I would have thought the biggest reason not to use them is that if you don't have a near perfect fuel/air mix they won't do anything anyway, apart from burn out.

graeme · 2 Aug 2007, 08:31 (Ref:1978851)

No defination of what a "cat" is - might a handful of platimum wire stuffed in the silencer suffice??

Agreed - how do we defeat this idea?

**Tim Falce** · 2 Aug 2007, 12:18 (Ref:1979024)

Quote:

Originally Posted by graeme

Agreed - how do we defeat this idea?

Letters to the MSA, protests, lobby parliament or maybe even riots in Trafalgar Square although I expect we will do nothing.

Highside · 2 Aug 2007, 13:40 (Ref:1979067)

I think Germany have been running with a similar rule for a number of years (except I think it is for post 1990 vehicles), so there is a precident.

Can any of our German based racers let us know how the situation works over there?

I think the rule is impossible to police as it stands unless you instead put a tollerance on emissions (which, as mentioned, will require on testing at the track, or possibly testing and sealing of the cat & zorst by the scrute at the start of the season).

I'm not against the idea on the face of it - if nothing else is holds out an olive branch at a time of increasing focus on "green" issues - but only if the rules are correctly written (i.e. for production based saloons only, produced after 1999, and the limit is set at the emissions off xxx CO2 at idle etc, not the meer presence of a cat in the system).

**Peter Mallett** · 2 Aug 2007, 13:59 (Ref:1979079)

Yes there's been a good market in hollow cats in Gernany for many years.

GordonG · 3 Aug 2007, 09:43 (Ref:1979729)

I just had a reply from MSA - views should be registered at technical@msauk.org. Include as much detail as possible, including which discipline (ie Race) you are interested in.

G

EfiOz · 5 Aug 2007, 22:36 (Ref:1982015)

Cats don't present a major prestriction when properly sized. They do introduce a lot of heat and can cause a performance decrease in mid engine cars for this reason (excess underbonnet/air intake temps).

If your AFR is near where it should be then the cat life will be fine. Being too cold will kill them quicker if anything. LOL, Holden COmmodorres have come from the factory for years running pig rich under full throttle and that doesn't kill the cat any quicker than Aunty Dot driving it to the shops every day.

AU N EGL · 6 Aug 2007, 11:33 (Ref:1982420)

Quote:

Originally Posted by graeme

No defination of what a "cat" is - might a handful of platimum wire stuffed in the silencer suffice??

Agreed - how do we defeat this idea?

There are companies that build High Flow cats.

Here in the States one company is Random Technologies. Their high flow cat is very efficent at removing polutants yet only decreases HP by a pony or two on high HP cars.

When you look though the cat you can see straight though with a slight honey comb of platinum wire inside. Other then that the exhaust flow is almost the same as without the cats.

So with your new rules for 2009 there might be some market opportunites for a few ppl to build high flow cats for race cars.

No one said you have to use OEM cats, did they?

**dtype38** · 19 Sep 2007, 21:24 (Ref:2018306)

My car is registered with the DVLA as having a "build" date of 2000, a "taxation" date of 1976, and "registration" date of 1965, and just for good measure has an engine emissions test exemption letter. I feel some interesting arguments in Scrutineering coming on.

Oh, and as you can see from my Avatar, my fueling situation is slightly less than "ideal"!

GORDON STREETER · 19 Sep 2007, 22:14 (Ref:2018344)

Well if this does come about it will mean a cat test in scrutineering and parc ferme. I remember when we first had to fit silencers to our Hot Rods. They were supplied by the promoters so they were all the same, but we used to thrash the guts out of it and put a normal piece of exhaust right through and weld it up

bigted · 20 Sep 2007, 07:20 (Ref:2018504)

So this applies to Rally cross as well i would guess?

**Tim Falce** · 20 Sep 2007, 17:39 (Ref:2019106)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Well if this does come about it will mean a cat test in scrutineering and parc ferme. I remember when we first had to fit silencers to our Hot Rods. They were supplied by the promoters so they were all the same, but we used to thrash the guts out of it and put a normal piece of exhaust right through and weld it up

Well it has come about, it comes in from 2009 for cars manufactured after 1999 and from 2008 for new series'.
I will be interested in seeing what and whether there will be any emissions testing or whether you just need a cat fitted even if it does nothing.
This seems to be like one of Tony Bliars "Five minute fixit" ideas.
Oh and what is an FIA rain light? I guess it'll be one that costs £150 from Deamon Tweaks rather than a £10 Maplins jobbie.

JimW · 20 Sep 2007, 18:15 (Ref:2019133)

See http://www.msauk.org/site/wbs/news/V...se&chapter=262 for the formal MSA announcement.

Jim

Eddy V · 20 Sep 2007, 20:06 (Ref:2019204)

Only just seen this topic.
In Germany they have been running cats for about 15 odd years now. In the early days they were the bogg standard ones, but now most use the racing cat, almost like a normal silencer.
HJS (free advertising) are the leading manufacturer and quite good as well. Most racing cats will have a normal live span of about 5 years.
Price, depending on the size of the engine, is in the region of 450 to 550 pound.