Peugeot 406: STW success vs. BTCC failure

[matherto]

Personally one of my favourite shapes of the 90's, the 406 design leant itself very well to a Super Touring makeover and as such both the STW and BTCC cars looked fantastic in their various liveries.

There was a vast gap in performance and success between them though. STW was great for Peugeot with Aiello winning the title and generally always being competitive with Van Ommen as well but the BTCC team forever struggled despite Watts, Harvey, Radisich and so on being pretty decent drivers.

Does anyone know why they were so radically different? Surely they were effectively the same cars or did the STW team build something completely different?

I know they were Peugeot Sport cars whilst the BTCC cars were ran by MSD (I think) or others so did they have secrets to unlock that they didn't tell the boys in Britain?

I read an article somewhere that the STW engine was pretty similar to the 306 F2/Maxi engine and with MSD running Hyundai's effort in the same class, they didn't want to give away anything, perhaps that's true?

[porsche962fan]

you already answered your question


the german team didn't want to give away any secrets to essentially an outside organization even if they run the same cars supposedly

[matherto]

Why didn't Peugeot run both teams in that case? Given how huge the BTCC was at the time, surely winning that too would've been good?

Could've brought Aiello over before Nissan got the chance and dominated in Britain.

[Sodemo]

The story I heard was that the aero kit was more suited and designed for the kind of tracks more common in Europe than the uk, so it was more high speed and low drag, whereas in the uk you needed a more pure high downforce setup, fair comment?

I'm sure it was more than just that (if indeed that is true at all) because the Honda Accord had a similar design (good engine but lacking aero) and it fared pretty well in the uk.

[S griffin]

They showed great potential in 97 with Harvey coming ninth and getting two podiums one in the wet (where he came within a lap of winning) and one in the dry, but sadly weren't able to follow it up

[KA]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The story I heard was that the aero kit was more suited and designed for the kind of tracks more common in Europe than the uk, so it was more high speed and low drag, whereas in the uk you needed a more pure high downforce setup, fair comment?

IIRC, didn't Vauxhall have a similar issue with the Vectra around that time ('97 I think), in that the aero kit was done by Opel in Germany and was designed for European tracks, but simply didn't work on the UK tracks.

The engine story rings a bell with me as well- Peugeot UK's engines came from Richard Longman, then later from Mountune IIRC, so I can well believe the idea that if the French used an engine derived from the 306 Maxi rally unit, they wouldn't want an outside team or supplier with links to a rival manufacturer getting a close look at it- Apart from MSD running the Hyundai rally programme, didn't both Longman and Mountune do a fair bit of rally engine work as well as BTCC engines?

[iceman-1987]

honestly i always made me this question when i followed touring car championship at that period.

i always thought that one big reason was the fact that in STW there were AIELLO which was a real talent of touring car while in BTCC there was not a peugeot driver at level of french man!

harvey won btcc when btcc was not yet so much competitive like in the years from 94 to 00, radisich has always been a great driver in the single even (monza 93, donington 94) when he can set the car perfectely for the track but he always missed competitive for the whole season.

talking about different between track SILVERSTON, OULTON PARK, TRUXTON seems imho track where is important to have high speed and low drag.

[RED55]

It was more to do with the German spec cars running different suspension tweeks which wasnt allowed in the BTCC version,but gave the German spec cars that extra performance. From the start the british cars were a step behind the STW version.

Supertouring go so complicated with different homologations it is what lead to a complete change of regs for the BTCC,

Now the Touring car licence being introduced for the BTCC will end up holding more value than some of the cars now they all fall into common components regulations !

[DS"]

As it was already said, there wasn't any real exchange of information between the German and the British crews. Which is a shame, given that manufacturers like Audi or BMW have shown how to spread information accross Europe's various touring car series.

[chunder]

Audi never dominated as much in germany as they did here?

Nissan did very little elsewhere whereas Opel did OK with the Vectra in Germany and France when it first came out I think, but bombed in the UK.

Not sure about Alfa, Renault. I doubt Renault had a manufacturer team anywhere else, despite having the best touring car really for years.

Same as Ford who only did a bit initially, but struggled thereafter until the later years.

Horses for courses really.

Only realy factor in all of it is that BMW made a car that seemingly could win anywhere. Just not consistently.

[one five five]

The British Peugeot's both ran pretty good at Bathurst in 1997, perhaps the track suited their aero kits better as well.

Originally Posted by KA

IIRC, didn't Vauxhall have a similar issue with the Vectra around that time ('97 I think), in that the aero kit was done by Opel in Germany and was designed for European tracks, but simply didn't work on the UK tracks.

For Bathurst 1997 the Triple 8 Vectra's both switched to the 1996 aero kits IIRC, as the Bathurst regs allowed this while the BTCC rules didn't.

[Loran]

Peugeot had factory team in STW. Which didn't change three seasons, consistently developing the car. Frame of team partially came from the French championship.
In BTCC to 1997 too there was a factory team. But in 1997 it was abolished, and development and service of cars were given to the MSD team. MSD started everything from scratch. But it was given only two seasons, before closing of this project. Anything surprising in absence of results.

[Metzo]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The story I heard was that the aero kit was more suited and designed for the kind of tracks more common in Europe than the uk, so it was more high speed and low drag, whereas in the uk you needed a more pure high downforce setup, fair comment?.

thats what i'm thinking, the fast tracks STW raced on (Hockenheim, Salzburgring or Wunstorf) suited the 406 more than the tracks BTCC raced on.

Originally Posted by chunder

Audi never dominated as much in germany as they did here?

they dominated the first 3 seasons of STW; but only won in 1996, in 1994 & 95 they lost the championship in the final round agianst BMW.

[NaBUru38]

Yellow Peugeots were also used in Argentina:




and Uruguay:

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by DS"

As it was already said, there wasn't any real exchange of information between the German and the British crews. Which is a shame, given that manufacturers like Audi or BMW have shown how to spread information accross Europe's various touring car series.

Anyone recall the shortlived Supertouring magazine? IIRC, there was an article on this very question. Along the previous poster's lines even though the teams were supposed to work together, the BTCC team often got updates/fixs/setups later than the STW teams so they were always playing catchup to the other BTCC teams. I believe the budget vastly differed too btwn the 2 efforts.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by RED55

It was more to do with the German spec cars running different suspension tweeks which wasnt allowed in the BTCC version,but gave the German spec cars that extra performance. From the start the british cars were a step behind the STW version.

Supertouring go so complicated with different homologations it is what lead to a complete change of regs for the BTCC,

Well, but no. Both STW and BTCC from 95 used FIA homoligation, outside of that there were no techincal waviers as far as I know?

As you all say, both Peugeots in STW and BTCC where the same cars, with MSD being the customer team, and as always with customer teams, they get parts later, do less testing and so on, they will always be behind. And in that era of Supertouring if you were 3 months behind, you were 0.5 sec a lap behind.

On the other hand, if you look at Opel it was the factory team in Germany that built and ran the cars for STW, while in BTCC it was first RML and then from 97 Tripple-8 that built and ran the cars. So naturally here there were no customer team, and they both had great success. So two different things.

But looking at Audi, Richard Lloyd Racing ran the cars in BTCC, which at the time was a "customer team" but with close cooperation from Audi in Germany, still had great success, as did every other customer Audi team in the whole world. Same with BMW.

[Paradise City]

The Cavalier did well but the BTCC Vectra never did anything much except get a bit tasty in the wet. Or is my memory failing me?

[Andrew Abbott]

In Europe it was never called the Cavalier, it was already called the Vectra.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by AndySpeed

In Europe it was never called the Cavalier, it was already called the Vectra.

It was mostly called the Vectra in Ireland too. But my point is the BTCC and STW GM challenge - if we want to put it in those terms - didn't see eye to eye. I remember reading of Cleland complaining of that in the Autocourse annual for either the 96 or 97 seasons. But it's awhile since I read the annual - maybe I misread what he said.

[Sodemo]

Am I right in saying that the technical regulations were slightly different between the stw and btcc? I heard one story saying they allowed things like flat bottoms in stw which weren't allowed in the btcc? Is that the case?

[FIRE]

Who ran the German Peugeot? Was it Peugeot Sport (French) people?

BTW Interesting thread.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Yellow Peugeots were also used in Argentina:

This is TC2000?

[mountainstar]

What I recall is that the Pug had the horsepower and aero for straight line speed so it was ideal for some of the German tracks, but in the UK that didn't work. Also the UK team didn't have the biggest budget around either and probably didn't have some of the tweaks they had in Germany.

[S griffin]

Peugeot were the Arrows of the BTCC. There a long time, close a few times, but the one that never quite made. Just wasn't meant to be it seems

[Jiiiiiiim]

Didn't Aiello test the BTCC 406 at some point, I know he tested the Renault Laguna when he first looked at coming across. Seem to recall him saying the car wasn't that different from the STW car, but I'm stretching my memory now!

Great discussion topic btw & very interesting reading