DTM 2023

[Matt K]

I guess it's time for the 2023 thread.
With the big announcement that ADAC is taking over the DTM and further details revealed today, there are already some more information regarding the upcoming season.

First of all, I have to say today's news kind of exceeded my expectations. The 'pyramid' that ADAC came up with looks really good 'on paper' and I'm really happy that the concept of the DTM is retained. I believe that thanks to ADAC, the DTM is on a bit more stable ground.

Lack of competition between DTM and ADAC will also help everyone in my opinion plus will put some order to the German motorsport scene and the whole package looks very, very good. I'm also happy that DTM will now use Pirelli as I've got an impression that Michelin wasn't fully engaged in their role of tyre supplier. Slightly less happy with SRO BOP but that was to be predicted.

I'm quite curious if the relationship between DTM and DTM Endurance will be completely frictionless however. How the teams will be spread across the two series remains to be seen but I'm kind of curious about the numbers. ADAC says their goal for the DTM is to have between 24 and 28 cars and I believe it's reasonable.

Have to say I like the calendar a lot, really happy with return to Oschersleben, will be fantastic to see DTM at Sachsenring as well. It's nice to see the DTM return to Zandvoort and that Norisring is retained. The balance is much in favour of Germany but great that all the 6 events will be held on different tracks. In the future would be great to see two rounds added, for instance at Salzburgring and Spa but still, not much to complain about.

[Yannick]

The calendar is looking really good indeed.

[Bcarr6]

Just watched the first 5 mins of one of the ADAC Prototype races from 2022 season, 11 cars, and I think that was a season high. Theres a nice scenario here where P3 just disappears due to lack of interest, and GT Masters / DTM Endurance just gets to be GT3 focused Am orientated racing.

[Matt K]

First entries for the 2023 season are confirmed.
Abt has confirmed they will be there with at least two cars, with Kelvin van der Linde stating remaining with them and doing the DTM is his goal. What's interesting is that it's not yet certain which car Abt will field.

It is also confirmed Thomas Preining and Dennis Olsen will remain in the DTM with Porsche, no details about the teams and the number of cars but it's said more cars can be added - the new Porsches ofc.

Grasser has just confirmed they'll field two cars in the DTM next year so scaling back from four this year in order to combine the DTM programme with GTWC. A start in GT Masters is also possible.

Following the change from ITR to ADAC, there's a cloud of uncertainty about Rene Rast now, allegedly he wants to the DTM with BMW but there's one calendar clash with Formula E and he needs to have a full-time programme there. So either he misses one round in the DTM or is not there at all.

2023 Entry List

CONFIRMED
Abt - ?? - K. van der Linde?
Abt - ?? - ??
Grasser - Lamborghini - ??
Grasser - Lamborghini - ??
?? - Porsche - T. Preining
?? - Porsche - D. Olsen

POSSIBLE/RUMOURED
Schubert?? - BMW - S. van der Linde??
?? - BMW - R. Rast??

[Bcarr6]

Bernhard likely with 1 car, possibly 2

Manthey and Toksport WRT potential Porsche entrants too

SSR are rumoured to be swapping to Lamborghini, space in that stable created by GRT moving from 4 to 2 cars

AF corse will likely not be returning to the championship as Red Bull have removed their backing for the programme

Interesting movements, and shows there’s solid potential in DTM, when they are discussing the logistics of which teams fit in a 6-car-per-manufacturer slot

My guess at a very basic level:

4 Lamborghini
4-6 Porsche
4 Audi
4-6 Mercedes
4 BMW
1-2 Ferrari/Aston/McLaren/Honda/similar

24-26 cars would be a nice figure

[Speed-King]

DTM Endurance not happening after all: https://www.motorsport-total.com/gt-...ender-22122401

So there will now be only six races for GT-Masters( one standalone, one at the N'Ring Truck GP, the rest with DTM), and I'm wondering how many teams have already moved on. Might be a bit of a challenge to put together a good field now.

[Matt K]

The question is now, as much as DTM Endurance concept was controversial, what does GT Masters stand for? Is it still sort of a combination between juniors and amateurs that might prove a step on the ladder towards a future DTM move? Or is it again just another GT3 series in Germany next to DTM? Looks like ADAC is not entirely sure what they want to do with the whole platform.
Grasser, for example, seem like disregarding GT Masters, opting to focus on DTM and GTWC instead. There might be more teams like that but we'll see.
Possibly a better idea would be to have a mulit-class GT Masters with GT3 and GT4, whereas DTM Trophy would remain as a purely junior, one-driver-per-car series. But another question would be, if there's enough teams/drivers/sponsors for all of that.

[Marcel ten Caat]

Originally Posted by Matt K

The question is now, as much as DTM Endurance concept was controversial, what does GT Masters stand for?

Good question. When racing on DTM weekends GT Masters will play second fiddle. They won't be in the pit boxes for example. Plus ADAC already has the GTC Race series on its ADAC Racing Weekend meetings, where GT3 and GT4 race together. No point in creating another similar series.

[porsche962fan]

was there ever such an idiotic situation when you have a main series and the supporting series used the same cars ?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

was there ever such an idiotic situation when you have a main series and the supporting series used the same cars ?

V8 Supercars in Australia?

Michelin Le Mans Cup and ELMS?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

was there ever such an idiotic situation when you have a main series and the supporting series used the same cars ?

This isn't idiotic. It's extremely common throughout motorsport history. Nobody would call the GTWC setup idiotic, but they have GT4s in some main series, and GT4 support series. But they also have a lot of GT3 support series supporting the main GT3 event. Or national series supporting regional ones.

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This isn't idiotic. It's extremely common throughout motorsport history. Nobody would call the GTWC setup idiotic, but they have GT4s in some main series, and GT4 support series. But they also have a lot of GT3 support series supporting the main GT3 event. Or national series supporting regional ones.

GTWC America, GT America, GT4 America... all seem to overlap pretty happily.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This isn't idiotic. It's extremely common throughout motorsport history. Nobody would call the GTWC setup idiotic, but they have GT4s in some main series, and GT4 support series. But they also have a lot of GT3 support series supporting the main GT3 event. Or national series supporting regional ones.

true but here it's a relative small country motorsportwise this days , not like what it used to be

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

true but here it's a relative small country motorsportwise this days , not like what it used to be

DTM is not contained within a single country, it races across the continent.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

true but here it's a relative small country motorsportwise this days , not like what it used to be

Other than the US and perhaps Japan, I can't think of a country that's larger than Germany come motorsport. GT Masters, DTM and NLS alone put it ahead of a lot of countries.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Other than the US and perhaps Japan, I can't think of a country that's larger than Germany come motorsport. GT Masters, DTM and NLS alone put it ahead of a lot of countries.

UK

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

UK

You think UK car racing is bigger than Germany??

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by peebee2

You think UK car racing is bigger than Germany??

why do you think german motorsport is that big ?

their touring car series is almost non existing, GT Masters is just another GT3 series , DTM future unknown , VLN is basicly whatever they can scrap together and has 4 wheels what else is there ???

it's not like in the old days when German DRM had better supported Group 5 grids than the WSC, when in the 80s Germany was the sole country except of Japan with a dedicated national group C championship , or late 80s they had best Group A based series in the world (DTM...) or in the 90s with 2nd best touring car chamipionship in the world the STW running alongside the DTM

[IdealLine]

Originally Posted by peebee2

You think UK car racing is bigger than Germany??

Thing with the UK is the club racing scene is absolutely huge, where in Germany it's pretty much non-existent (except for RCN and the BMW 318Ti championship).

Would actually be interesting to know which % of citizens hold a competition license. That should give a pretty good view of how big the racing scenes are compared to each other

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by IdealLine

Thing with the UK is the club racing scene is absolutely huge, where in Germany it's pretty much non-existent (except for RCN and the BMW 318Ti championship).

Would actually be interesting to know which % of citizens hold a competition license. That should give a pretty good view of how big the racing scenes are compared to each other

Maybe that way, but I was meaning more economically and financially.

[uesugi kenshin]

Argentina has more racing series than the rest of the world put together !!

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

why do you think german motorsport is that big ?

their touring car series is almost non existing, GT Masters is just another GT3 series , DTM future unknown , VLN is basicly whatever they can scrap together and has 4 wheels what else is there ???

Partly agree, German motorsport is in a bit of crisis and that can be seen particularly when looking at different junior championships and comparing them with the British ones for example. However, arguably, more major championships in Germany have somewhat 'higher profile' to the UK ones, for example comparing ADAC GT Masters and DTM with British GT and BTCC respectively. Although that might be subjective.

Anyway, what I mostly disagree about with you, is you mention 'DTM future uncertain' and that is simply untrue. When ADAC took over DTM the main purpose was to secure DTM's future and I believe that's settled for now. Of course, perhaps we need to wait and see how things stand in 2023, 2024 but with DTM being at ADAC, it's probably GT Masters that has a bit more shaky ground underneath than DTM - at the moment at least. We'll see how the situation develops over the next two-three years.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Other than the US and perhaps Japan, I can't think of a country that's larger than Germany come motorsport. GT Masters, DTM and NLS alone put it ahead of a lot of countries.

Argentina

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

UK

lol. I love British motorsport, but no.

DTM has more high profile entries than BTCC
GT Masters has more high profile entries than British GT
NLS has more high profile entries than...I dunno, Britcar?
ADAC GT4 has more cars than the entire British GT grid
ADAC F4 has more cars than the British grid
ADAC TCR has more cars than the British TCR grid. But then again my driveway has more cars then British TCR.

I love a good BGT and BTCC weekend. But it is absolutely not on the scale of anything Germany does.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Argentina

Fair. I don't often think of Argentina as it's very bespoke to them - but you're right.