Phoenix Park 2009 and beyond?

[BrianC]

I have been attending the pheonix park motor racing since I was 2 years old, and ever since that day I was hooked.

When I was a kid I lived close enough that on the saturday morning of the racing weekend I could hear the practice races, noise cascading from the distance , building my excitement to watch the minis and formulas trashing it out.

Everytime I return to the park in its unique surroundings I feel enormous nostalgia, the noise hits first (although much quiter now unlike the days of the Formula Atlantic days) then a glimpse of a car through the trees then the PA system gets in ear shot and then you know its going to be a fun weekend.

I am disapointed that the Park is cancelled this year , I have been to Goodwood on two occassions and while a free event like the Park could never hope to better it, I feel that many of the elements that make goodwood so successful certainly apply to the Phoenix Park.
There is certainly a market for historic racing events throughout the world and the Park should be right up there with them.

I remember very vividly the Porsche race which was won by Rusty French the two 935k's were a class ahead of the rest , but the massive amount of 911's door to door coming around onto the main straight I will never forget, it was as bad as the Punto races ........just more expensive.

I chatted with David Piper at Goodwood and he mentioned that he brought one of his 917's to the part in the early seventies, I dug up all my Phoenix Park programmes and discovered that there has been many sports races where the giants of motor racing have raced in the Park , David piper (in porsche, ferrari and lola) , David attwood , stirling moss.... the list goes on.

I am a major porsche fan now and am trying to get more information on the livery that the various porsches ran in through the 70's.
If anyone has any photos no matter how sketchy of 917,910,906 ,935,911 that were raced in the park I would appreciate it. Alternatively if anyone knows where I can purchase the photos that were used in the original programmes I will chase it up.

I will miss the park this year, my own son is two now and I had intended bringing him this year.........I hope that the organisers take into account that they are in control of something very unique

[eamonn ledwidge]

.........I hope that the organisers take into account that they are in control of something very unique[/QUOTE]


There are no organisers - that is why there is no racing at Phoenix Park this year.

A small group of dedicated folks got together to revive & restructure the event in 2006 & 2007. I was privileged to be part of that group & personally undertook a lot of the corporate sponsorship fundraising. When final accounts were drawn up there was a deficit of €38,000 approx over the two years. The bulk of this deficit was attributable to additional costs associated with the poor weather conditions in 2007.

This deficit was absorbed by Motorsport Ireland, who realistically cannot be expected to fund ongoing losses for an event whose costs exceed its income. The general public, who gain admission free - unlike at Goodwood or indeed any other sporting event, do not even buy programmes at Phoenix Park.

The task of organising this event is immense & the number of volunteers needed to make it really successful is more than double what has been available in the past. No one individual was prepared to step forward to head up the effort for 2008 and the rest of the team were truly exhausted from their efforts of the previous year.

We all have our great memories of Phoenix Park Motor Races in former times when costs were lower & the regulatory, safety & insurance regime were very relaxed.

The harsh reality is that to stage the event in 2009 the budget will be €240,000. Race entry fees will be approx €110,000, assuming the same format of racing. The balance will need to be raised in corporate sponsorship, which is an immense task. It requires detailed presentations to hard nosed business folks who need to see a tangible return on their sponsorship money. There is no fairy godmother to fund this event, no grants from any State or tourism body.

This historic event is in danger of being lost forever unless it receives more support - and by this I mean financial support - from those who race & spectate at Phoenix Park. You cannot expect others to pay for your fun.

I am sure that my comments will raise a few hares, but the harsh reality must be stated, you cannot ski on last winters snow!

[Peter Dunne]

I cant fault your argument at all Eamonn. Its the age old problem of a few enthusiasts doing all the work only to have their efforts knocked by those that do nothing.

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

This historic event is in danger of being lost forever unless it receives more support - and by this I mean financial support - from those who race & spectate at Phoenix Park. You cannot expect others to pay for your fun.

Interesting. Care to elaborate? (especially the financial support from spectators bit)

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

I cant fault your argument at all Eamonn. Its the age old problem of a few enthusiasts doing all the work only to have their efforts knocked by those that do nothing.



Interesting. Care to elaborate? (especially the financial support from spectators bit)

I'm reading this that Eamonn is saying spectators should be charged. I think they should, even say 5 Euro. They manage to charge for rock concerts and for flippin' flower shows (which attracts thousands of people). Restrict spectators to certain areas of the the track to make this workable (this happens naturally from Mountjoy to Dublin corner anyway really). It should be possible to at least try it - it's either that or have no Park at all so nowt to lose.

Could the motorsport authorities do more for circuit racing in general? Rallying is king in Ireland but it has far more coverage and promotion than circuit racing so naturally this will attract people. The Park gets more spectators than Mondello gets in the whole year so people will come to watch if their interest is aroused. There have been peaks of interest when there has been some kind of star attraction in Mondello or the Park so under the right circumstances, interest is there to be tapped.

A Goodwood Festival of Speed type event is the future for the Park. People would pay to see that.

[MagnetON]

I've split some of the posts from the Phoenix Park Memories thread and put them here as I think the two subjects are worthy of separate discussions.

[eamonn ledwidge]

The rock concerts & flower shows are large commercial ventures, well funded in advance & therefore capable of financing the costs for security cordons etc to secure admission charges.

Phoenix Park Motor Races is not in that category & each year starts with zero cash in the pot. Consequently, the event is unable to fund creating a controlled zone into which the spectators will be admitted - the costs of achieving this would be considerable.

I estimate that the public attendance at Park 2007 was of the order of 12,000 spectators. Programme sale of say 4000 @ €5 each would have achieved an income of €20k, the actual was very much lower. Its an area that needs work for the future - it also needs a dedicated band of helpers!

For this entire venture to be successful, considerably more effort and assistance is needed from the driver groups - fundraising and assistance with manpower to help construct & run the event. The drivers are the principal beneficiaries - if they really want to race a Phoenix Park they must find the means to make it successful, from both a sporting and financial perspective.

[Motormouth]

Huge Loss to this years calendar, everyone always looks forward to the Park. Hopefully it will be back in '09 but now is probably the time to get working on it.
I think there are some issues with charging admission in the Park, but I can't remember the details. Also, I seem to remember that you had to pay into the paddock (which was inside the track, accessed by bridge) years ago!!

[graeme]

Autosport reported a few weeks ago that Britcar had been knocked back for a street race in Bracknell (?), and here's a road race looking for some support - worth talking to each other?

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Graz

A Goodwood Festival of Speed type event is the future for the Park. People would pay to see that.

I’m probably a lone voice, but I think “going historic” would be a backwards step for the Park. One of the reasons it’s a great event is because it’s contemporary cars - and some historics – racing on public roads. (I think Goodwood would be a better place if they occasionally let out some modern Club stuff – I’ve tried to tell Charles this, but he won’t have it – to tell the truth, I’m probably just jealous ‘cos I can’t race there).

[Graz]

Originally Posted by graeme

I’m probably a lone voice, but I think “going historic” would be a backwards step for the Park. One of the reasons it’s a great event is because it’s contemporary cars - and some historics – racing on public roads. (I think Goodwood would be a better place if they occasionally let out some modern Club stuff – I’ve tried to tell Charles this, but he won’t have it – to tell the truth, I’m probably just jealous ‘cos I can’t race there).

I take your point but because in recent years, the Park has been a non championship event, it seems that not all classes care to race there anymore. In it's current guise, the Park will not survive so a new direction needs to be considered.

When I say go historic, I don't paricularly mean 1930's etc. cars like they seemed to try to lean towards a few years back. The casual fan just would not dig this. If they were to go down the Festival of Speed type route, like the Goodwood FoS (as opposed to the Revival), there's no racing so guys can demo cars as quickly or slowly as they please which means the type of cars to run would be limitless.

[eamonn ledwidge]

Originally Posted by Graz

I take your point but because in recent years, the Park has been a non championship event, it seems that not all classes care to race there anymore.

It is my understanding that some years ago the classes elected for the Park to be non championship - this for greater enjoyment of the event. In 2007 there was a grumble from a number of classes that they were no longer interested in racing at the Park, as it was non championship.

The simple solution therefore is - make it a championship round for all Irish classes.

[davyboy]

Its sad to say but I think The Park is a thing of the past. There are too many things working against it and at best it can hope to be a demonstration event of interesting racing cars, probably historic, a la Goodwood Festival of Speed. Realistically I think even that will never happen.

To continue to lean on the ardent volunteers and Motorsport Ireland to underpin and underwrite a minor club meeting is unreasonable and unworkable.

To attract significant spectators and structure paid entry to see the race would necesitate a big ticket international race series - WTCC, BTCC, FIA GTs, Euro LeMans, WSR, Euro/Brit F3 etc... To facilitate contemporary racing cars - F3, WSR, WTCC, FIA GTs etc... would require enormous changes to the Park to make it safe. Such changes are more or less impossible in the Ireland of 2008.

Its depressing, its sad, but at least some of us have memories of The Park in its heyday with 100,000 spectators lining the Hawthorn circuit and the sights and sounds of Formula Atlantics streaming by. Lump in the throat stuff.

[MagnetON]

Open the Park up to other forms of the sport.

Bikes. A full grid of SuperSport 600s heading down to that tight right hander! Dangerous? No more than any other road race, indeed probably safer as the trees are a little further away than on many road race circuit!
Rallycross. Difficult one, not sure how the OPW would take to creating a suitable rough section, or indeed where on the current circuit it could be put to allow maximum spectating.
Rally. Park as a tarmac stage....
Drifting. Ok, so some purists will frown, but recents events at Mondello show that the punters LOVE it.

And here's a controversial one...

Track-Day. (Ok, Track-Session!) Give everyone that attends a track day at Mondello in 2009 some form of "certificate" and only those with a certificate (meaning they are supposed to know what they are doing!) can pay for their session. I'm sure there's quite a few of the Track Day Warriors that would enjoy the chance of throwing it around the roads they drive to work on every day.

Originally Posted by davyboy

Its depressing, its sad, but at least some of us have memories of The Park in its heyday with 100,000 spectators lining the Hawthorn circuit and the sights and sounds of Formula Atlantics streaming by. Lump in the throat stuff.

Well unfortunately in these days of satelite sports, playstation and an "instant gratification" culture these days are gone, so we just have to see what we can do (if anything) to keep alive at least part of the spectacle of cars racing around an improvised circuit in a park in the heart of a European capital city.

Hmmm, surely there must be some EC funding available for cultural events? I'm sure if it was a centuries old historic parade of a leprechaun around the Park before being chucked off the top of Guinness's that was in danger then there would be funding available.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

It is my understanding that some years ago the classes elected for the Park to be non championship - this for greater enjoyment of the event. In 2007 there was a grumble from a number of classes that they were no longer interested in racing at the Park, as it was non championship.

The simple solution therefore is - make it a championship round for all Irish classes.

You are correct but wasn't it also the case that the Park was made non championship so as not to put drivers under pressure to feel they had to race there i.e. because some drivers feel it's unsafe but would have to race there for championship and thus sponsorship reasons. If that is so, it would unlikely get championship status again.

[eamonn ledwidge]

Perhaps so, but the fact is the drivers cannot have it both ways, its a double option as proposed, so they can beat the drum from either side:

A) Non championship - no pressure, just enjoy the weekend racing

B) Its non championship - I'm not racing

My honest opinion is that the event as currently structured will never amount to much as a large club racing event - in effect Mondello racing at summer camp in Phoenix Park. The costs of staging it are too high vs the entry fee income - also the organisational effort for the event is enormous.

Spectators, who do not attend at Mondello club meetings in any real numbers will only turn out at Phoenix Park for an attractive spectacle of high quality and exciting visiting cars. Its the only way that this event can ever attempt to regain the prominent position it once held.

The much bandied about 100,000 plus spectators tale is a throwback to the 1930's & has never been fully substantiated, either then, or in the 1960s/70s - it should be ditched.

To really progress, The Park should become an 'invitation only' event. Realistically, the event must look to secure some 75 -80% of its costs from entry fees and the rest can be pulled in from a commercial sponsorship drive. The organisers should invite the 6 strongest local classes, both numerically & financially to commit to race in 2009 for €20k per class, with full grids and guaranteed money down - cash in the bank and this well in advance. Then invite 3 quality UK Historic racing classes (1960s/1970s cars) 1 x Sports/Sportsracers & 2 x Single seaters, say Formula 5000s, Classic F Junior or Historic F2/F Atlantic. The competition to secure these cars is strong, from circuits both in UK & Europe, however, with good contacts, marketing and ferry/hotel discount deals it can be done. It would also make for a hugely attractive spectacle of racing and bring in the spectators to see some pretty unique cars on the last true road racing circuit left in Europe.

This would also round off the excellent work done by the organisers of the 2006/7 events in rebranding & relaunching this historic event.

[Farbrooke]

on the last true road racing circuit left in Europe.

Think you will find there are one or two ahead of the 'Park' for that acolade - Pau - Angouleme to mention two.

Agree wth the rest of your appraisal - coupled with maybe sale of corporate areas alongside the track

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

The much bandied about 100,000 plus spectators tale is a throwback to the 1930's & has never been fully substantiated, either then, or in the 1960s/70s - it should be ditched.

The 100K weekend attendance figure was mentioned in a feature on The Park in a Sunday supplement of Irish Newspaper back in the 1970s. I can't confirm their estimate... and neither can you... but there was certainly a significant amount of spectators back then, a magnitude more than in recent years.

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

Then invite 3 quality UK Historic racing classes (1960s/1970s cars) 1 x Sports/Sportsracers & 2 x Single seaters, say Formula 5000s, Classic F Junior or Historic F2/F Atlantic. The competition to secure these cars is strong, from circuits both in UK & Europe, however, with good contacts, marketing and ferry/hotel discount deals it can be done.

You haven't addressed the safety issue. The consequences of an F5000 connecting with a lampost, tree or skip doesn't bear thinking about. They couldn't [and wouldn't] be allowed to run on The Park the way it is today.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The consequences of an F5000 connecting with a lampost, tree or skip doesn't bear thinking about. They couldn't [and wouldn't] be allowed to run on The Park the way it is today.

Worse than coming off Mondello at the sharp 90 degree left turn at turn 2 and hitting the banking? Or suffering a failure on the main straight and hitting the armco/bridge supports?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Worse than coming off Mondello at the sharp 90 degree left turn at turn 2 and hitting the banking? Or suffering a failure on the main straight and hitting the armco/bridge supports?

I know... both are horrendous hazzards as well. I was involved in a very nasty karting accident at BOAC [or whatever its called these days] in the 1980s when a driver was badly hurt and its not that much different today. Two wrongs don't make a right and these should be fixed. At least there isn't the obstacle of governmental departments in the way to make that happen.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by davyboy

At least there isn't the obstacle of governmental departments in the way to make that happen.

Yeah, just the geography of Mondello

[Graz]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Yeah, just the geography of Mondello

Mondello is much slower than the Park I guess so a little less dangerous (though still very much so - I saw a very nasty sidecar crash at turn 1 in the late 90's Leinster Trophy meeting where the passenger was badly hurt). Magnet, you're on the front line so would very much be in the know. I have often thought what would happen approaching turn 1 with a stuck throttle or a major startline spin towards the bank on the inside there.

Back to the Park and the last few threads have talked about safety etc. - this goes back to a Goodwood FoS type event - drivers can go as quick or slow as they want as there is no direct racing. The Park has tremondous pre war Grand Prix history that could be leveraged off for such an event as this.

I also liked the idea of introducing other classes such as motorcycles - for the road racers, the Park would be state of the art safe.

If safety's an issue, God forbid chuck in a couple more chicanes.

Currently we're all musing about what we think should happen and what we would like to see...what actually will happen does anyone know?

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by davyboy

You haven't addressed the safety issue. The consequences of an F5000 connecting with a lampost, tree or skip doesn't bear thinking about. They couldn't [and wouldn't] be allowed to run on The Park the way it is today.

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Worse than coming off Mondello at the sharp 90 degree left turn at turn 2 and hitting the banking? Or suffering a failure on the main straight and hitting the armco/bridge supports?

Both are fair comments but the Park is still many times safer than all Irish Hillclimbs. Take Ballyalban in Clare as an example: very bumpy with speeds of over 120mph with stone walls on either side of the road, 100 ft drops in places and NO run off whatsoever.

There is still a huge interest among drivers in competing at the Park. Every year you are guaranteed to find a few drivers racing in Mondello purely to get enough signatures to upgrade their license in order to race there. Of course the Park is dangerous. All street circuits are. Its part of the attraction for spectators and competitors alike. Its a challenge. Pounding around Mondello or Kirkistown year in year out is not! Unlike our cousins across the pond, we are not blessed with a myriad of circuits to choose from so we should be working to protect what we have.

As Eamonn said earlier, its all about cash. Lots of cash. If we put as much effort into doing something instead of talking about it, then we might have been racing in the capital next weekend instead of cutting the grass!

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by Graz

If safety's an issue, God forbid chuck in a couple more chicanes.

Please Graz not more chicanes. The one on the run to Furry Glen causes more problems then anything. Its always different when you arrive at it, cars get stuck in it and it causes accidents. I'm sure someone will disagree with me but thats my opinion. I reckon the poor marshels must be knackered fixing it every lap.
The one thing with historic racing is that there is far less aggressive driving than in modern formulas so you probably needn't worry about the speed so much. Witness the average historic event at any uk circuit and then compare the damage with an equivelent modern class event. So running a historic only event would (possibly) be safer. In the single seat classes the drivers are very aware of how weak there cars are should they hit a tree or skip so they (probably) wouldn't run so hard.

[Farbrooke]

See Motorsport News reporting MI race committee running the Park in 2009 - looking for Euro 140000 - talking to UK historic series - considering bikes and karts as well - has to be good news

[Bruce 10]

Eamonn - keep up the good work. As we spoke earlier in the year I would be more than happy to come over with a F5000 and an Atlantic and race if the Park were to run. Several others in DBT would do the same. As to the safety issue - whilst I applaud all efforts to make motorsport as safe as possible, it is what it is. Having raced at Pau last year in the 5000 all I can say is get Phoenix Park up and running! The enjoyment and priviledge of racing on the streets was incredible and the spectators loved it.