Yellow Flags

[Peter Mallett]

This may not provoke a discussion here and if so please pull it mods.

However I am a bit annoyed at the way those of us who respect yellows, get penalised by those who don't. This is a general whinge but this weekend I was passed twice under yellows in a race only for that car to fall back and thus I repassed him/her after the yellow area. What is the point?

Likewise in practice I slowed for a yellow. After practce I found that those who were taken to task for not respecting yellows, still retained their times! I could have been two seconds faster but I allowed for the yellows.

Discuss.

[Notso Swift]

this weekend I was passed twice under yellows in a race only for that car to fall back and thus I repassed him/her after the yellow area. What is the point?

Where they redressing the situation? If you do redress the stewards tend to give you a warning, vs booking you.
In Aus we are told do not redress under the yellow, otherwise we may book the wrong person for passing (at club level, Suppercar drivers are like the BTCC, they can do what ever they want, it seems)

It gives me the irrates as well, I mean how come it is always seems to be the same people who manage to pass you under yellows, are they blind, or just ignorant?

[EvilPumpkin]

What do the rules say? It was always my understanding that if you passed under yellows and "gained an advantage" then that advantage was removed. Presumably gaining time is just as much of an advantage as race position?

However, I don't have a blue book so i can't verify the actual wording - that's just what I've always understood it to be (so it's probably wrong! )

[Bob Pearson]

To simply remove the advantage gained is not sufficient. If competitors get to know that is all that will happen it becomes generally accepted that "its always worth a go". The punishment should also act as a deterrent, anything up to exclusion. In fact it always used to be exclusion, even for passing under a stationary yellow.
Any fastest times set during qualifying while a yellow is shown should also be lost, possibly along with the next fastest as well to, once again act as a deterrent.

[silver bullet]

Peter are we talking experienced racers, or novices.

I was at a meeting a couple of weeks ago and in the clubman section of the meeting two novice drivers carried on racing past two reds. The conditions were poor and these were novice drivers, but they should have been paying attention.

Delberate overtaking under yellows by experienced drivers should result in exclusion from the race

[archaic gold]

[QUOTE=Peter Mallet

However I am a bit annoyed at the way those of us who respect yellows, get penalised by those who don't. This is a general whinge but this weekend I was passed twice under yellows in a race only for that car to fall back and thus I repassed him/her after the yellow area. What is the point?

As an experienced Race Observer (so I am led to believe); it is often the case that a Competitor does overtake on the Yellows, then realises his error, and backs off to regain his previous place. In reporting this would be given as mitigating circumstances, and I would feel, that by backing off, his lap time for that lap would suffer. This is assuming he backed off sufficiently to allow the car he overtook back into it's rightful place! (After the Green Flag, of course!!!)
I obviously can not comment about those that still overtake and hope they will go unseen! Then I have been a Competitor as well!!!!

[rcarr]

I have been passed when a red flag was shown! I saw it put my hand out of the window to signal I had seen the flag and the guy behind passed me!

He wasnt penalised and I lost my hard fought place!

I was in an XR2 and he was in an ex-eurocar with a Cosworth YB engine! So there was no chance I could pass him at the restart!

I have also had the leaders lap me before passing the green flag under waved yellows!

[Shelagh]

If an overtaking under a yellow is reported by the observer (flag/observer) and mitigating circumstances are given (eg the overtake had been planned from way back - if view allows - or the flag had just gone out), then this is usually taken into account.

If the "offending" driver subsequently redresses the balance by allowing the other car(s) back through, then the original observer is not usually privy to that fact (because it normally happens out of his sight).

All you can do as an Observer (or pseudo-obs, because that is the situation we are in these days) is report what you have seen (IFyou have seen it).

I am sorry if this does not address a real and genuine concern about "people getting away with it", but that is the state we are in on the bank. The best and only way of "doing" drivers for whatever reason is to have the manpower out there watching for the wrongdoings. The only way that will happen is when we get back to "wall to wall" orange around the track. Until then, you - like us - will have to accept that all is not as good as it should be.

Gosh - isn't that depressing.

[Ian Sowman]

If the red flag was being shown, it would not affect your race position. The results would have been declared from before the red flag came out, or the new grid for the restart would have been formed on the same basis.

I can't comment on your specific circumstances, rcarr, but there are circumstances when a red flag is shown and it is safer for a driver to maintain his momentum and pass a car rather than slow very suddenly, which may - and indeed has in the past - led to a very serious incident.

On the whole though, there's no excuse for passing under yellows. Punishments should do more than re-instate the positions as they otherwise would have been. Qualifying is a more tricky one, as it is perfectly possible to do your fastest lap and slow down for yellows on the same lap (admittedly unlikely).

[rcarr]

He passed me at racing speed, while braking for the hairpin at Knockhill! My place wasnt reinstated.

My Dad always talks me out of going to the stewards after the race to have a chat.

[Ian Sowman]

Yes, but you said it was when the red flags were out, so it wouldn't have been on a lap that counted in the results.

If that lap has been included in the results, I would be more concerned (a) that the timekeepers had included it and (b) that the CoC signed the result to be honest!

[rcarr]

It was included, all 15 laps were counted.

[Stephen Green]

A red flag should always go back to the last completed lap for results!

Peter, I can only hope that others will follow your example and slow down for yellow flags. The situation is not helped when we see professional drivers (F1 for instance) setting their fastest times under yellow flag conditions. I can only say that when giving my morning post briefing, I emphasise that I want to know about any overtaking under stationary or waved yellow flags as I deem it incredibly important for the safety of my team. Unfortunately all the Observer can do is report the incident to Race Control, it is then up to them what action, if any, is taken.

Might I suggest you bring the subject up at the next drivers briefing and ask the Clerk to be strict in upholding the rules?

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by rcarr

I have been passed when a red flag was shown! I saw it put my hand out of the window to signal I had seen the flag and the guy behind passed

If a Red Flag is displayed, the Race is sterilised, and the results GO Back to the previous lap, so you should not have been penalised. A very good friend of mine took the lead in a FF Race just past the Start Line, when a Red FLag was displayed, and so the final results showed he was still Second, as the Timekeepers have to go back One Lap!

[Al Weyman]

Its no good not complaining to the officials then moaning in the paddock (or on here!) forever after. This is an all to common British or english tendancy as it is not seen right to 'grass' someone up. That is all well and good but it is why persistant offenders get away with things no matter if it is as the example on this thread or a desreprancy on a vehicle. Stand up and be counted if something is blatantly wrong or put up and shut up and never mention it again, how can the stewards do their job properly without our help. Its hard but for good, safe and fair racing it has to be (sensibly) done.

Oh I should add that I am probably as guilty of this as anyone :-)

[Peter Mallett]

For the record I wasn't complaining as such just pointing out that it seems anomolous. I was only racing for fun. Indeed I didn't know I'd won my class until 24hrs later! But it worries me, the driver did redress the balance but by that time the serious damage could have been done.

I kick myself sometimes because I do tend to disadvantage myself under yellows, a habit that I won't stop, however it does mean that I can count the number of times I've lost a podium on two hands, two feet and loads of other appendages!

[Al Weyman]

Fair enough Peter but you were making the point so it is obviously and quite rightly something that worries you.

As a matter of interest did you not report the offence(s) on previous occassions? If deliberate handballs and headbutts can be missed in soccer on the world stage by professional and well paid observers and referees what chance the volunteers doing their best on race day without a bit of support.

[Peter Mallett]

The problem is that you can't dictate a uniform speed for driving through a yellow area. Thus complaining goes nowhere because the observers are looking at relative speeds. Thus maybe I slow down too much?

[Tim Falce]

I had a similar problem on Saturday, see my thread here.
I also saw one or two people overtaking under yellows at Luffield (one was a Lotus 11) in the race prior to mine, I don't know if anything came of it though.
It's not so much a case of whether you have been given your place back after the event but the time you lose to the guy in front.

[tony le t]

I was overtaken quite enthusiastically under a red flag on Saturday, by a supposed Silverstone instructor, when asked why he thought me and the guy I was behind slowed down, all I got was a shrug of the shoulders as he swaggered into the sunset!!!!

And that from an instructor words fail me

[archaic gold]

All Competitors have a redress in that they can always put in a Protest. I accept that this can cost money, but I know from experience that if the matter is not completely resolved, the Fee is NOT taken, as if the redress is upheld. I appreciate that it is not always felt "British" in Club racing, but our " dangerous" Sport must be 'policed' somehow. You may be surprised that many driving discrempancies do not go unnoticed by Race Observers.

[Stephen Green]

welcome to ten-tenths Tony

[275 GTB-4]

Racers....is it so hard to glance at the Flag Points, see the [insert pretty coloured Flag] and act accordingly

The last meeting I attended, a race was Red Flagged.

I must have been about the fifth point franticly waving the red......a large field of drivers were so engrossed in what they were doing that they were still racing and overtaking at my point....frightening if the reason for the red is another driver in a dangerous and vulnerable position

[Bob Pearson]

275, I think you have answered your own question, "so engrossed in what they were doing". In single seaters on the first lap of a race most of the navigating (except for the man leading) is done by peering between the engine cover and the wing end plates of the guy you are trying to pass in front, while watching in your mirrors for the guy behind who is trying to do the same to you. In this frenzy of eyes scanning from mirrors to the restricted vision ahead we are also looking for braking points and trying to see a couple of car lengths to get some advanced warning of any incident beginning to unfold. Its not like driving to work. Drivers don't mean to miss any flag, especially a red as there is absolutely nothing to gain. I suspect the race you refer to was at Snett last weekend. The problem was triggered by the inexperience of the leaders who braked hard at the first sight of the reds so forcing many of the following drivers to overtake rather than also brake hard and risk impact from behind, certainly that was the decision I made. The matter is to be discussed at the next drivers briefing ( so I understand)

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Racers....is it so hard to glance at the Flag Points, see the [insert pretty coloured Flag] and act accordingly

As another flaggy, I'd have to say that yes, it is hard to glance at the flag points and I try to bear that in mind when waving - I have every sympathy with the drivers trying to hang on at the limit and spot something which is often at the edge of vision.

What does annoy me is when a flag is clearly ignored, not missed, and there is no excuse for that. Sadly, it is very difficult to judge relative speeds from trackside especially when dealing with an incident or flagging for it, so it's pretty much all we can do to pick up overtaking. Other than that, we're relying on your co-operation and consideration, and if your competitors aren't doing the decent thing, please do us a favour and take it up with your championship co-ordinators.