Average cost of a season of CF3

[PTRACER]

With a great deal of hope and a dash of optimism, I am going to attempt to find some financial backing for CF3 next year. Futile, it may be, however I don't know whether I'm earning enough at the moment to do it, so it's worth a try anyway.

I understand you can run on the same set of tyres for the entire season, but if you factor in say, two tyre changes throughout the season, plus race entry fees, fuel, accommodation, travel costs, possible damage/mechanical repairs, etc., what's an approximate ballpark figure?

[Matthew Sturmer]

tyres are approx £650 per set, entry £250, engine rebuild say £4000 at the end of season, fuel for tow car £100 per race (free race fuel this year as sponsored by BP, along with jacket, fleece, brolly and cap), accomodation £60 per night, consumables for team £100 per race, so it all depends on how many races you want to do. I think there are likely to be 8 in the uk for 09, but the French series runs to the same regs. and some of their races are not too far over the channel. If you want any more details it would be best to contact the Classic F3 club, Reg or Richard via the web site classicf3.co.uk

[ralt-racer]

Hi Ptracer

I have just won the championship and it cost just over 8K this included 2 sets of tyres (1 will not last in my opinion) you can use the free fuel if cf3 manage to get BP's backing again but be aware that you will need to add tetra boost, most use Sunoco. Entry's vary but work on a max of £250. We run our own car and do all the prep and running ourselves. Matthews right get in touch with Richard or Reg it is a great championship which has good clean racing and great people.

Of course you have to get a car as well unless you already have one if not work on £18-25k


Cheers Benn

[delta]

Hi PT. Mathew has answered your question well. Have you raced a Toyota F3?. I have raced my 793 March for the past 20 years and dont think racing in CF3 is any more expensive than FF1600 or FF2000. The tyres do last all year but vairy a bit on heat cycles. I never buy new tyres but am lucky as i can pick up good second hand that have only done one race. CF3 is only expensive if you throw the car off as parts are getting scarce ie wishbones wings bodywork ect. Engines and gearbox are strong but you need to learn to drive the cars as you can damage both by over reving "missed gears" or detination if loaded up at low revs. Apart from that they are great fun Fast and the drivers are very freindly and helpfull. Hope to see you next year.

[PTRACER]

Yes, I am a little worried with regards to damaging it as I'll be driving someone else's car...The other cars I've driven have all had rev limiters, so over-revving (and in the case of the Novamotor engines, "under-revving") has never been something to worry about.

What is the quality of the competition in CF3? How hard are the cars actually raced?

I've seen a few race results and noticed that the field is quite spread in qualifying, sometimes 15 or more seconds between the fastest and slowest runners, does having more modern machinery help, or is it more down to a combination of varying levels of driver talent, budget, preparation etc.? I mean, is it possible for a mid-70s-ish CF3 to run competitively with say, a very late-70s or early-80s March?

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by PTRACER

I mean, is it possible for a mid-70s-ish CF3 to run competitively with say, a very late-70s or early-80s March?

I would say (as the driver of a mid 70's CF3!) that this depends on who is driving the mid-70's car and who is driving the late 70s early 80s car! It would be interesting to get Bill or Ben to do a back to back test. There has got to be a difference due to better aerodynamics - all other things being equal (engine, tyres). But I think you still have good fun and a lot of satisfaction whatever you are driving in this series.

[delta]

I still say and have allways said that the argo JM6 is the best car out there.

[simon drabble]

this is probably the first relevant thread for months.
I have to say I think it is a shame that the twinkies are disappearing from your grids - they are pretty and cheap but I understand that the allure of a class win having been lapped by the front half of the pack is not great!

[delta]

Good Question that Simon. A few years ago they had there own races with good grids. Bet the cars are sat in sheds somewhere going rusty.You see a 1600 F3 car up for sale every now and then and for a fair price. If they get let in at Monaco 2010 then you could make a killing.

[simon drabble]

I tried a few years ago to buy the Dastle from the old man Dastle but it was a long drawn out process where I had to call him at certain times when he wasn't playing golf and in the end he changed his mind!

[delta]

Geoff was going to make me somw wishbones. I had a FF2000 Dastle but after about 2 years i gave up and fitted Delta ones to the car. Worked fine.

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

I would say (as the driver of a mid 70's CF3!) that this depends on who is driving the mid-70's car and who is driving the late 70s early 80s car! It would be interesting to get Bill or Ben to do a back to back test. There has got to be a difference due to better aerodynamics - all other things being equal (engine, tyres). But I think you still have good fun and a lot of satisfaction whatever you are driving in this series.

Coming back to this - I noticed at the October Dijon meeting that in the French series one of the top drivers is now running a Ralt RT1 and is still winning and beating (on occasion) the RT3. The RT1, as I gather, was developed quite a lot over the years (contrary to the Modus which folded). The Chevrons are also quite competitive (and will be quick at Monaco). Why are there so few mid 70's Marches?
Perhaps CF3 could set up an intermediary class (says he hopefully!). You could call each class by the name of the UK champion that year (I think they do something similar in Masters GP with their Fittipaldi etc classes). It would encourage more of the "less competitive" cars to come out and play. The cars would have to be in the correct specification for the year (so the RT1 could run in several specifications).
Just a thought!

[terence]

Iain,at the risk of being a little ahead of time,there is still a very good chance of a BT21[I think]being out there with you next year.

[Matthew Sturmer]

Sounds like an excellent idea Marcus. My 76 Van Dieman/GRD also runs a 2 litre twin cam which puts it at a power / torque disadvantage as well compared to the Toyota cars, but the biggest problem it has is the "nut" holding the wheel. My view is that it's about getting out and having fun in real racing cars and I think the Classic F3 series delivers that in spades. If Monaco does come off it can only be good for these cars as it will bring more out onto the tracks, both 1600 and 2 litre.

[PTRACER]

Originally Posted by delta

Good Question that Simon. A few years ago they had there own races with good grids. Bet the cars are sat in sheds somewhere going rusty.You see a 1600 F3 car up for sale every now and then and for a fair price. If they get let in at Monaco 2010 then you could make a killing.

My friend had two GRDs in many pieces in his shed up until recently. I believe he sold one of them and the other he still has. I've offered him use of my garage to build it up at some point, as he already has a car in his garage at home.

There also seems to be a complete and ready-to-race GRD on the CF3 website, though that has been on there for many months. Not sure if it has been sold or not, the site is not updated very often.

[driftwood]

mor eoften than not the front running car is well prepped set up and has a good driver getting the best out of it
Ben is a good peddler has a tidy car and has not spent sacks of cash to run at the front and he had some competition from Bill Coombs another good driver
However it has to be said life is a lot easier when you have the model of car that was good in its day-hence why it is 79 80 cars that are winning

If CF3 needs to bolster grids then a simple tweeking of teh lotus twin cam restrictor will encourage some $$ strapped lads to buy a GRD Brabham bt37 ish type car to race midfield towards a top 10 slot as the car are not great sellers over £10k but you will pay £20k for a march ralt 78 9 80 vintage

In france the RT1 can still beat RT3 cos the RT3 has to convert flat floor and not run the ground effect floor that made it a superior car to the RT1

looking to run 1 set of tyres all year is pointless unless you are a novice learning the circuits and you dont have that gold plated pot to urinate into

To get up the field you do need new rubber every 2- 3 poss 4 heat cycles/races or the times do fall away and you start to feel that your wasting your time spending £600 going to a race to get beaten by the guy you whipped last race

[simon drabble]

but if you can get a race ready twinkie car for £10k that sounds awesome value and in these recessionary times that should be a popular class....

[ralt-racer]

Drift Thanks for the kind comments its nice to be noticed............. my car in its day was a poor offering and did not feature at the front most of the teams switched back to the 79 but I believe that the tyres nowadays suit the chassis hence it is now at the front. Opening up the restrictor on the 1600 is a great idea if it attracts more cars CF3 needs all the cars it can get.

Marcus Sounds like a challenge..........!!!!!!!!!! I am interested myself to see the difference through the years.

Ian I am in complete agreement the Argo is the best car hehehe......... Bill was kind enough to give me a in car vid of Donnington and it is interesting viewing The Argo seems harder through the slow corners like Bill was struggling to get the power down but it seemed more planted through the fast corners. I suppose both cars have there good and bad points it will be nice to back to back them....... if it happens.

Pt the engines are usually very reliable you just have to take it easy with the revs below 5 once you get into it it becomes second nature. The wishbones body's etc can be a replaced but it can be expensive. However CF3 is a friendly bunch and they race hard but fair I have lost count of the times I have run side by side though corners with Bill and Paul this year without touching once. Of course I cannot speak for the rest of the grid but I am sure Reg and Richard would be on it if there was a problem they are very interested in keeping the racing clean and fun for everyone.

Benn

[driftwood]

re the TCam and air restrictor- i spoke to a guy few years ago and he had very early 1600 F3 car and said his FFord was faster down the straight then his f3 car even with the wing off the F3 car there was not much gain over his FFord as the restrictor was so small

[James Murray]

Terry Surely a BT21 is a 1000cc F3 car not a post 71 twincam car.

[delta]

Id of thought a 1liter screamer is going to be quicker than a FFord. And blooming noisy.

[driftwood]

maybe a back to back test is called for
Coombe n Simms in the 79 and 74 cars on the same date 2 drivers to give median lap times of the cars
and then a BT21 and a similar age FFord car are required and have Delta driving as he is more of the age of driver who would have raced these cars when they where new Im too young!!

[delta]

Ok we can do it same day as MGB verses Elite. Dont beleive it ive mentioned MGB in a F3 thread.

[James Murray]

Hang on. What point is there comparing a 1000cc f3 to a 1600/2000cc f3, they are 2 seperate beasts entirely. 1000cc F3 cars have more in common with Formula Juniors and race in a seperate championship. There isnt much point comparing a 1600 f3 to a 2000cc f3 either as the 2000cc car with the Toyota engine will be way faster.

I thought the original query was whether an early 2000cc car such as March 753 or Modus could be competitive with a late 2000cc car such as an Argo or March 803. My guess is that there wouldnt be much difference with a decent driver such as Benn, but that the later car would have the edge. Having said that a well driven March 753/763 could possibly win outright in the right hands IMHO.

Iain shame on you for mentioning the fabled MGB on a single seater thread. What next......

[driftwood]

maybe he can throw in some pussy champagne and cavier!!
i agree march 763 can still be a winner in CF3 against 793 argo jm6 BUT the guy is gonna have to work hard on a good set up new tyres strong motor and drive it like no other before him cos in period no one took older cars to the winners circle
If they did why the firk did they buy new model each year? was it cos it looked nice or had better performance?