Lessons to be learned? Trainee marshals

[Snapper Baz]

Firstly, before anyone makes the comment.."who is he to make such remarks" I did many years marshalling, mostly on my own and dealt with severe shunts, huge fire balls, driver injuries, sweeping and flaging-I've pretty much been in the thick of it and covered everything there is on the subject I would imagine.

What I saw unfold during Sunday's Modified Live at Brands though made me, for the first time ever, report my observations to those in charge of running the meeting during the lunch break and also after the event. As I understand it the meeting nearly didn't go ahead as many of the usual marshaling team were not available for the weekend for whatever reasons and so apparently it seemed that most of the orange team on duty were trainees with the odd experienced marshall placed here and there which allowed the racing etc go ahead-but only just with very few on each post (possibly the bare minimum to run a meeting?)

Some of the experienced marshals that spoke to me afterwards voiced their frustration afterwards as to why they were put on relatively quiet posts whilst the usualy busier posts were manned by just trainees by themselves.
After some truck demo's the climb out of Paddock Bend saw enough gravel to cause concern on the racing line as one truck had been in and out of the gravel trap moments before-I mentioned this to the guys on 4A (seemingly all trainees) as I had just walked through the gravel on the track as I crossed...they said it was fine and nothing to worry about!

Ok, please yourself I thought! Shortly afterwards a Time Attack car was pulled out of the gravel trap and away leaving a huge amount of gravel all over the foot of Paddock Bend-it was bad...real bad. Two marshals did a half hearted attempt but walked away leaving it still covered the entire width of the track. Are you realy going to leave that as it is I asked? "It's fine and it's off line anyway" they responded..."they want to get on with racing anyway!!" I could not beleive my eyes and ears-it was outragous! Even after the 1st Fiesta race the track was still covered in stones-windscreens must have taken a real beating I'm sure.

Is it not possible to ask the clerk of the course could we have just a few more moments whilst we make the track safe to race on before cars a let away again on track? During the last race of the day a Fiesta had a big shunt at post 4. The car slamming into the tyre wall at the post, pushing the barrier back and landing back on track on line sideways the other side of the track and in a complete mess with the driver obviously in distress and the track covered in debris. Only two marshalls were manning this post. With the main pack of cars passed the incident I asked one of the marshals "are you going to go to that drivers aid?" (he had lots of patches on his overalls so I presumed he had lots of experience and knew what to do LOL)...there was no response....time ticked by.

"you have got to go now" I shouted as I was concerned as the car was leaking fluid big time and the driver had still not got any aid. I was about to grab a fire extinguisher myself and leap over the barrier when the a marshall decided to eventually walk over (not rush!) and proceeded without a fire extinguisher....there were a few straglers (cars) but were now passing the scene with caution so crossing would have been no problem.

"Take a fire bottle for god's sake" I shouted...he then called the remaining marshal over and to bring one once he's got there!! By the time he got to the driver the rescue unit had arrived from the pitlane exit-thats how long it took the first marshal to get to the driver. Had the car caught fire or ended upside down I dread to think what may have happened-though I do know I would have gone to the car myself with a fire bottle.

It was the craziest days marshalling I have ever witnessed and lessons should be learned...I did wonder if these trainees had ever actually learnt anything from their previous meetings...or had they actually been to one? Surely trainees are taught what to do regarding clearing of debris before a race and also how to deal with a major incident??? Frightening to watch it all unfold and hope I don't witness another day like it.
PS: sorry for any bad spelling!!

[HairyDJ]

Wasn't there, so can't comment beyond the fact that Modified Live is not too comparable with a "real" race meeting - it's more of a carnival with a few races padding out the showmanship isn't it?

[Bodysnatcher]

Sounds poor, hope lessons will be learned.

[socko]

As a trainee myself I have been put onto a post on my own recently with only 8 days experience,I protested saying that I dont have the experience to handle a post with a club flagger only to be told i was experienced enough to do it,I didnt feel I was.

Also i have dumped on flagging as well having had no flagging experience or tuition,yes i have read the handbook and watched others,again i said im not the best for the job only to be told we have no-one else.

All the things the OP has stated i would have done as i have my head screwed on,if anything I tend to try to clear the track of debris more often than I should usally being told it isnt worth going out.

As this is my first year in orange i was told as a learner that I would be put with a mentor or someone with experience to teach and guide me,i would say that at 75% of my meets this has happened.

Would we need to ask is how experience these marshals had?,even though im now 12 days experinced Im yet to deal with a major incident so although on paper im suitable for lone roles the reality is im not.

I wasnt at this event but surely someone high up needs to answer to why this set up was seen as acceptable even after concerns where raised by experienced marshals.

We are relying on inexperinced trainees to much,something will go wrong one day but it needs looking at before this happens
Sorry about spelling as im in a rush and Im not the best,but I make a good cup of tea

[NewYankee01]

im a trainee myself and would hate to be on a post like paddock hill (where you know theres few place in the country that gets more action) with fellow trainees, as with modified live, some marshals are there as marshals, but a lot are spectators in probans, mainly like btcc! luckily the ML i went to at oulton wasnt too bad

[HairyDJ]

Originally Posted by socko

surely someone high up needs to answer to why this set up was seen as acceptable

It's been said before, but nothing ever gets changed - maybe a different approach would be to address it to the drivers? Do they really know that if they bin it badly, the cover at each post is so under-qualified . . .

I wonder if this event has been unpopular with experienced marshals in the past and the wise old hands are keeping clear, with the organisers happy to grab anybody they can from the new-but-keen brigade.

Hopefully the OP will raise the matter formally with the MSA and urge them to review video evidence of the incidents he describes. They should have access to records to clarify grades / manning levels at all posts.

[JimW]

Are these events run under an MSA permit? If so, who was the organising club?

Jim

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by socko

I protested saying that I dont have the experience to handle a post with a club flagger only to be told i was experienced enough to do it,I didnt feel I was.

I wasnt at this event but surely someone high up needs to answer to why this set up was seen as acceptable even after concerns where raised by experienced marshals.

No doubt, whoever made that decision was under a lot of pressure to ensure the meeting went ahead. They should however, definitely be under MORE pressure to ensure that every post is manned by somebody who is at least comfortable knowing how to deal with what's going on (even if it means simply calling RC and telling them that the brown smelly stuff has hit the blowing spinny thing)

I'd suggest that you drop a line to the MSA and mention your concerns.

If you are ever put in that position again, then you should outright refuse to do it, or at least, don't attempt to guess what it might be safe to do, and keep yourself behind the barriers. If/when somebody asks you why you didn't do something, explain that (as you pointed out at the beginning), you didn't know how to do it safely.

[Hepatic]

Baz, what response / feedback have you had from those you reported it to?

Modified Live is run differently to that of a standard race meeting, but that doesn't mean to say the standards of marshal cover should be any less. It does sound like a classic example of people being put in a situation where they are not comfortable because body numbers are low, and (rightly) are hesitant to react in some cases as a result. Their #1 priority is THEIR safety, if they were not comfortable going trackside to deal with it then i wouldn't expect or want them to. It might look horrific to people with experience but remembering what i was like as a trainee i would probably have done the same.

You expect to have experience and guidance on post. If you turn up & find its just you, depending on the type of person you are, you will revel in the responsibility and make a damn good job of it or curl up like a hedgehog and protect yourself, probably not go trackside and most likely hate the day too. If there were enough (at least green badges) to help the trainees but were poorly distributed then that should never have been allowed to happen. If there weren't then the CoC has a really hard job balancing running the meeting and ensuring everyones safety. Cadwell has been in that situation many times and i have to say do a remarkable job in shuffling posts to ensure everyone goes home happy at the end of the day.

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by socko

As a trainee myself I have been put onto a post on my own recently with only 8 days experience,I protested saying that I dont have the experience to handle a post with a club flagger only to be told i was experienced enough to do it,I didnt feel I was. say that at 75% of my meets this has happened.

Point blank refusal if this happens,
if you don't feel you have the experience to do the job, don't.
if it all go's pear shaped, your the one who will be getting his butt kicked.
I have in the past and still do make refusal's when turning up on the day and as many other Marshals have done, handed the ticket back, and departed.

At the end of the day, we do it for the enjoyment and the love of motorsport.
not to be bullied in to something we don't want to do

[EvilPumpkin]

Who's the organiser for this? Is is MSV? I'm just wondering what level of interaction with control the marshals had. I've only ever done MSV and BRSCC events at Brands and while I've never had to communicate directly with the tower, I've always been left with the impression that the interaction is very good. However, could it have been the case that there was a different team in the tower who were instructing the marshals on what they were supposed to do i.e. go, don't go, leave the gravel etc.? I've been at a few meetings at other circuits where what appeared to be shoddy marshalling was nothing more than sock puppet marshalling from race control - which would be pretty easy to do if you had a lot of inexperienced people on dodgy posts?

Just wondering?

[Snapper Baz]

I nearly didn't go as had other things planned so only did the Sunday as it turned out. However, knowing that Drifting was on (one of my fave's) and the Fiesta's (4 races) and also some Time Attack I thought I'd venture along. For me it was an interesting day but for the regular guys and girl marshalls it probably didn't look too inviting but I'm sure it would have been an enjoyable day had they gone along?

The organising club was obviously left in the lurch somewhat late in the day (I'm presuming?) with a huge amount of expected marshals not putting their names down for the event and therefore had to rally round to man the posts with the bare minimum to allow track activities to go ahead-putting the pressure on those on post to react correctly when needed to. Whilst I understand that some (as mentioned above) do feel that presure to perform when required, a good amount of common sense is also part of the job, sadly, this was hard notice on the day I was there.

I also saw two posts with all the flags laid out ready to be used but they were very rarely used when required-presumably because nobody knew how to??? (oil not spotted and in another incident lots of debris on the circuit)...no oil flag to warn...almost non-existant blue flags as well. I think the powers that be/those in charge of trainee's should find out what their experience is before throwing them in the deep end like this next time.

[Stoowert]

This is a potential "Perfect Storm" situation. After 5 consecutive 2-day meetings a lot of marshals saw Modified Live as weekend off bearing mind Goodwood and Brands both have 3 day meetings this weekend.
I think it was MSVR who organised this event at least as far as the marshalling was concerned as they were offering a free breakfast on both days.
The Chief Marshal can only work with what turns up on the day, and I can't believe that they would deliberately man the high impact posts with raw trainees while putting experienced marshals on lesser posts (Whatever THEY are. Ask Johnny Herbert!).
At a normal race meeting the interaction between RC and the post is dreadful! (Here I go again!) but the use of telephones slows down and dilutes any interaction. I hope they used radios last weekend as that would've given the troops on the ground direct and instant instruction.I fear that wasn't the case. (I'm guessing I don't know. I'll find out more on Friday)
I've had a few trainees on my post this season some having done 3 or 4 days some over 10. I try to boost their confidence as much as possible and I always ask if they fancy helping out with the flagging. It is part of my briefing to say I expect individual experienced marshals to know their limitations and expertise and I will respect their wishes. This means if they feel they can go trackside for whatever reason, I wont stop them. However, if I think it was the wrong thing to do, I'll have a chat about it afterwards...just as long it isn't in St.Mary's Hospital! If they don't feel capable of doing their job, OK the same applies,but it might be a good time to reassess their future as a track marshal.

Baz... Are you gonna be at Brands this weekend or have you scrouged a seat in the Royal Box at Goodwood?

[Stoowert]

Baz...

...Almost non-existant blue flags for a one-make series? Situation normal! I wonder how many blue flags are unnessesary (Spellling?) in one-make series.In my experience you use the blue for the first couple of laps until the sort themselves out (In qualifying) and then just watch for slower cars.
...I do sometimes wonder what the benefit of surface flag isunless it's serious oil or gravelon the racing line...but what do I know, I'm just a post chief!
...Only one "L" in marshal...

[RichardW]

Firstly, I wasn't there. I don't know what happened or why. And clearly there may be issues about allocations. I feel sad for trainees put in positions for which they feel unprepared. But I've seen similar things happen when there ARE experienced people on a post. I wonder if this is another example of the problems we face in UK marshalling. I've known Barry Ambrose for years - he knows what he's talking about - this sounds like it was a major problem and could have had a worse outcome. A growing band of us have been pressing the MSA/MWG to take concerns seriously - we've seen little concrete action to date. Changes need to be made - to the grading system, to communication systems, to on-post training and a form of continuous assessment - before it's too late. The MSA blame the clubs and the clubs blame the MSA. But, hang on - isn't the MSA suposed to be the governing body? Concerned parties should make their own representations to the MSA, their clubs or ours - with respect to 10/10ths, these comments alone won't provoke any changes. Time is running out - the need for change is urgent. PLEASE take your concerns to those with the power to change things - I wonder if Barry would consider putting a note to the Marshals Working Group at Colnbrook?

[Mike 'Bean' Broadbent]

I was not at this meeting, busy @ Oulton, but my son was there as support for one of the drift cars.
So, I am not able to pass any comments on the above, however, at each pre-race briefing, it is drummed into us that your personal safety is most important, then your fellow marshal, (regardless of their age, experience, time on the bank et al,) the driver & then the car. So if I see a group of white badges ( I'm only green) I always keep an eye out for them, at Oulton, its a team effort, not individuals

[Snapper Baz]

Stoo...I can never get Marshal and Marshall sorted ha ha!

But seriously, I will gladly help out or write to anyone regarding my observations if it helps in the long run. I know that the majority out on the posts do a superb job. We can all laugh and have a good time together...then the next moment can be spent working at the scene of something serious, I think thats the way it often happnes.

But it was proven to me at the weekend that just because somebody has 2000 patches sewn onto his or her overalls and may look the part doesn't mean they can actually deal with an incident or situation logically (whether it be debris/oil/gravel or a shunt) when required to do so.

Point me in the right direction and I'll do what's needed to help the cause.

I'm actually sleeping in my car this weekend at a VW Show in Norfolk taking pics and reporting...not too exciting I know but hopefully will be enjoyable!

[Stoowert]

I don't think the situation that arose last weekend would've been prevented by a change to the grading scheme. We can carry whatever colour of badge and gzillions of patches, but the bottom line is we need more marshals...That's all. The more marshals turn up for meetings, the better for Chief Marshals to apply them to jobs that suit their grade and experience. How do we get more marshals? The MSA has a highly publicised programme of trying to grab potential marshals at BTCC rounds, so they give themselves a pat on the back (And a hefty bonus, maybe) and that's that. We send out loads of follow-up letters that may trawl one or two. What we can do is improve the lot of the average marshal. We can try for better conditions on post, earlier finishes to meetings, less two-driver races which, unless you can hear the commentary, become confusing after the pitstops. No one can do all this on their own. The BMMC is, after all, the Marshals' club. If we have a large membership we can get things changed. After all, Jackie Stewart didn't get GP racing changed on his own, he had the support of all his fellow drivers. If we can keep more marshals, and make it more appealing to the potential marshal, standards must rise...despite the MSA!

[Dean Watson]

as far as i know ( i was circuit staff at cadwell last year for ML) it is an MSA sanctioned event over seen by the BRSCC so the usual records should be on hand. Last year at Cadwell RC was originaly planned to be run by the track day staff but the Local cadwell volunteer RC staff were asked to run it. Cadwell usualy runs close to the mark with numbers on the bank and the mismanagement of trainees is one of the reasons i have not been out this year. i am Examining Post Chief and have seen plenty of occassions where trainees have been almost forced to undertake roles that they are not ready for or even remotely comfortable with. I have voiced my concerns to BMMC regional committee with little support or interest it seems so I opted to vote with my feet. And I am sorry to say I will continue to do so, I do not want to be filling in SI forms because the poor guy on the next post was in a position where he felt he had to act and the brown stuff hit the swirly thing big time. I may be seen to be acting foolishly with my absence from the bank, but I remember the preservation order Me, My team, spectator, driver so to protect me i stay away. Is approaching the MSA the right way to go? I watch the driving standards in the TOCA getting more and more tap/push to pass and who heads TOCA, the same guy incharge at the MSA? something needs to be done in the name of safety.

It sounds to me as if Modified live at Brands this year wasnt just time attack but also involved racing which means it is a different approach, time attack is very much track day rules where you may only pass on one side and not into corners.