Ooohhh Noooo!!! #58 12 lbs underweight!!!...

[jimclark]

... On the Grand Am board, there is mention of a press release ny Roger E that it is so. I can't find the PR tho'....

[jimclark]

"From the press release: "The winning No. 58 Brumos Racing Porsche Riley was found to be out of compliance for minimum vehicle weight in post-race technical inspection. The car was found to be 12 pounds underweight. The team was fined $5,000 in addition to five driver, team and manufacturer points. This will not affect the race results."

[ensign14]

That's ludicrous. Given the margin of victory those 12 pounds were almost certainly decisive in it winning.

[jimclark]

As much as I wanted Brumos to win...I agree wholeheartedly.

Welcome to the land of NASCRAP.

[old man]

I have just posted on the Daytone thread before I saw this one
Strange decision, refer to the FIA!!!!???

[The Badger]

Yeah ..... either your guilty or not !!!

What a race though .....

[Knowlesy]

Across a 24 hour race that is a big advantage.

Oh well.

[gsmith2424]

The question that must be asked is, did Grand-Am allow the team to refill the oil tank after the race or not? If not there is your 12 pounds.

[old man]

If it was wrong that is all there is to it, they should have been disqualified and Ganassi promoted, many people have lost race wins and points for small discrepancies, those are the rules.

[marcosgt]

Disappointing, but that's why Daytona is such a pale shadow of its former self (that and the gruesome prototypes!).

M

[fiend540]

Didn't ganassi have this same issue in years prior?

[mazda1]

Porsche dominates sport car racing just like Ferrari dominates F1. It's just not fun anymore. The difference in speed at Daytona showed that there was something weird going on. After the race Montoya said that they had halve the rear wing the Porsche had and still he couldn't keep up with the 58 in the straight. In racing 12 pounds is massive! It is a BIG advantage for anyone. I am just done watching Grand-am

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by mazda1

Porsche dominates sport car racing just like Ferrari dominates F1. It's just not fun anymore. The difference in speed at Daytona showed that there was something weird going on. After the race Montoya said that they had halve the rear wing the Porsche had and still he couldn't keep up with the 58 in the straight. In racing 12 pounds is massive! It is a BIG advantage for anyone. I am just done watching Grand-am

Montoya is a sore loser. It was Brumos who had the lower downforce setup. Their lap times were consistantly close, and yes the Porsche cars had the top speed advantage, while the CGR car had a torque advantage and more downforce in the infield. You could see the CGR car catch the Brumos car in the infield, only to rebuild the margins on the banking. As always, the advantage that Porsche had at Daytona, will disappear once they hit tighter tracks.

As far as the 12 lbs, a car outside of series rules should be excluded in my opinion. Of course, Grand Am isn't attempting to appeal to traditional sportscar fans who typically would have a similar viewpoint.

[cmk]

As much as I admired the tenacity of Brumos and thought it was very fitting and touching for David to win on the 40th anniversary of Mark's victory, the car is outside the rules. Period. When Fernandez failed the stall test at Sebring last year, the IMSA folks were not just saying 'naughty folks let your car get damaged on track, here's a fine'. Even if the reason is racing, the rules are rules. Totally agree with you Fogelhund, this smacks of the NASCRAP mentality. I believe that CGR has had postrace infractions before as well, so it would not be producing the 4th straight CGR win to exclude Brumos if the world of GARRA was right all along.

I also feel that Montoya is a sore loser. The top cars were very very close on pace this year, with 3 different powerplants. If anyone is dissatisfied with their relative engine performance, whether the fault of the manufacturer or the sanctioning body, it should be the Pontiac teams. If anyone is dissatisfied with the build quality of the engine, it should be the Ford teams. CGR should not be whinging.

Originally Posted by mazda1

Porsche dominates sport car racing just like Ferrari dominates F1. It's just not fun anymore. The difference in speed at Daytona showed that there was something weird going on. After the race Montoya said that they had halve the rear wing the Porsche had and still he couldn't keep up with the 58 in the straight. In racing 12 pounds is massive! It is a BIG advantage for anyone. I am just done watching Grand-am

Mazda1, your comment is beyond inane. Porsche dominates the sport like Ferrari dominates F1? Let's recap. 4 cars with 3 different motors fought out the final act of the Rolex, while the 2nd wave was made up of cars with 2 of those motors who struck minor problems. Porsche did not 'dominate'. Well, they did manage to get all 3 motors to the finish, but really, is that domination or just decent build quality (something Ford should try and emulate?). In GT, yes, Porsche was strong. If a 911 is NOT strong, something in the world is wrong - they win because they have the wealth of experience and the finesse in build. The Ferraris were fast in the right hands and fragile, same with the Mazdas. The Pontiac GXP-R is not built for Daytona. Period. Oh, and did you perchance notice that Mclaren brought home the drivers championship in F1 last year? Or how many non-Ferrari teams (BMW, Toro Rosso, Renault, Mclaren) won races? God, people on this board seem to be in hyperbolic mode lately - we need some real racing for a change.

[old man]

But Porsche did have technical problems in GT that they should never have had. The boots on the drive shafts were failing causing the CV joint to lose grease and so fail and my information is that many of the new 2009 GT3's had this problem and replaced drive shafts during the race. This should not happen with a car of this design age and smacks of them finding a new (cheaper?) supplier for their boots, rather like they had a problem with pistons a few years ago.
As I understand it the rules favour the frame cars against the production based cars so Pontiac and Mazda should dominate

[The359]

Well this is a shame, both for Brumos being underweight and for Grand-Am doing little about it.

[Leighton Irwin]

With NAPCAR if your car gets the Checkered flag for first in their major series the win stands. They may and often do find something illegal in post race inspection. Then there are fines, points loss and maybe crew chief suspensions but the win stands.
NAPCAR now owns Grand Am.
Discussion over.

Another reason I rarely watch NAPCAR.

[chewymonster]

Shows the integrity of the series.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by old man

But Porsche did have technical problems in GT that they should never have had. The boots on the drive shafts were failing causing the CV joint to lose grease and so fail and my information is that many of the new 2009 GT3's had this problem and replaced drive shafts during the race. This should not happen with a car of this design age and smacks of them finding a new (cheaper?) supplier for their boots, rather like they had a problem with pistons a few years ago.
As I understand it the rules favour the frame cars against the production based cars so Pontiac and Mazda should dominate

This is a good point, but it's one that only furthers my argument that the series is hardly structured to be a Porsche benefit. Despite some rather manky stuff from Porsche this year that caused basically all of the top cars to have problems save for the top two TRG cars, they still battled through to win.

[mazda1]

Originally Posted by cmk

As much as I admired the tenacity of Brumos and thought it was very fitting and touching for David to win on the 40th anniversary of Mark's victory, the car is outside the rules. Period. When Fernandez failed the stall test at Sebring last year, the IMSA folks were not just saying 'naughty folks let your car get damaged on track, here's a fine'. Even if the reason is racing, the rules are rules. Totally agree with you Fogelhund, this smacks of the NASCRAP mentality. I believe that CGR has had postrace infractions before as well, so it would not be producing the 4th straight CGR win to exclude Brumos if the world of GARRA was right all along.

I also feel that Montoya is a sore loser. The top cars were very very close on pace this year, with 3 different powerplants. If anyone is dissatisfied with their relative engine performance, whether the fault of the manufacturer or the sanctioning body, it should be the Pontiac teams. If anyone is dissatisfied with the build quality of the engine, it should be the Ford teams. CGR should not be whinging.



Mazda1, your comment is beyond inane. Porsche dominates the sport like Ferrari dominates F1? Let's recap. 4 cars with 3 different motors fought out the final act of the Rolex, while the 2nd wave was made up of cars with 2 of those motors who struck minor problems. Porsche did not 'dominate'. Well, they did manage to get all 3 motors to the finish, but really, is that domination or just decent build quality (something Ford should try and emulate?). In GT, yes, Porsche was strong. If a 911 is NOT strong, something in the world is wrong - they win because they have the wealth of experience and the finesse in build. The Ferraris were fast in the right hands and fragile, same with the Mazdas. The Pontiac GXP-R is not built for Daytona. Period. Oh, and did you perchance notice that Mclaren brought home the drivers championship in F1 last year? Or how many non-Ferrari teams (BMW, Toro Rosso, Renault, Mclaren) won races? God, people on this board seem to be in hyperbolic mode lately - we need some real racing for a change.

When I said Porsche dominates the sport I meant The company not the cars just like Ferrari dominates Bernie you ding dong. Which is why the #58 still the race winner, the reason why the #69 RX8 was brake tested During the race at Daytona by a Porsche and they didn't even got a penalty for ruinning the Mazda's race, and the reason why the ALMS Porsche GT2 had GT1 size tires at St Pete after they got lapped at Sebring 6 hours into the race by the Rissi Ferrari, They always wanting to dominate the sport and the rules is the reason why the P2 category has been ruin because they went to P2 instead of P1. Why you think the ACO rules for the P2 so they were slower than the P1 is just now beeing enforced in the ALMS when they had been in place for two years now? Because of Porsche's pressure to do so. Do you get it now, buddy?

[fiend540]

Originally Posted by mazda1

When I said Porsche dominates the sport I meant The company not the cars just like Ferrari dominates Bernie you ding dong. Which is why the #58 still the race winner, the reason why the #69 RX8 was brake tested During the race at Daytona by a Porsche and they didn't even got a penalty for ruinning the Mazda's race, and the reason why the ALMS Porsche GT2 had GT1 size tires at St Pete after they got lapped at Sebring 6 hours into the race by the Rissi Ferrari, They always wanting to dominate the sport and the rules is the reason why the P2 category has been ruin because they went to P2 instead of P1. Why you think the ACO rules for the P2 so they were slower than the P1 is just now beeing enforced in the ALMS when they had been in place for two years now? Because of Porsche's pressure to do so. Do you get it now, buddy?

No need to get so worked up, even with all the assumptions you have made.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by mazda1

and the reason why the ALMS Porsche GT2 had GT1 size tires at St Pete after they got lapped at Sebring 6 hours into the race by the Rissi Ferrari

I thought it always had them and was homologated that way...

[Knowlesy]

The wit on display in this thread is awesome. Or is it severe dyslexia? NAPCAR. NASCRAP. Whatever next, I wonder. I await the next pearl with corset in place, ready to save my internal organs should my sides split.

Back to the whole should they be penalised deal - well, yes they should frankly. A 24 Hour race is a big one to win and should not be open to rule bending.

If someone infringes rules in NASCAR and wins they are subject to points deductions that ultimately hurt them, Chase deductions crew chief bans, fines etc... In the context of a championship this is not good. It is not a perfect system, but you can't really gain an advantage from cheating.

Whereas in Grand-Am, I think many would be happy to sacrifice the title in return for a 24 Hour win. The Brumos #58 had a massive weight advantage and should be removed from the results.

And how ironic to see Donohue moaning about JPM's driving as well. Thank god we can look to his team for a flawless template of how to conduct business in the face of JPM's disgusting antics.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Back to the whole should they be penalised deal - well, yes they should frankly. A 24 Hour race is a big one to win and should not be open to rule bending.

In Grand-Am I think many would be happy to sacrifice the title in return for a 24 Hour win. The Brumos #58 had a massive weight advantage and should be removed from the results.

With this, I would have to agree!



L.P.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

I thought it always had them and was homologated that way...

True, it was a choice and it came with a weight penalty if i recall