how old is a car - FIA type question

[rbm]

so how do you declare the date of a car?

just say for instance (a purely hypothetical example... of course )

you had started to build a singe seat GP car back in 1954, you designed the chassis, the suspension, chose the engine and 'box you then say built the chassis and some other bits...

at this point things conspired against you and the car finally gets finished in say 2002, though using mostly original parts.

so what year is the car, 1954... 2008...?



next example again a single seater, designed in 1958 again chassis and suspension built up, engine and 'box sourced but again thing conspired again (by 1960 things had all gone rearward in the engine department so you are obsolete) she sits around getting in the way and so you finish the car in 1961/2

so again what year 1958... 1962?

[Alan Morgan]

The blue touchpaper is smouldering...

[MGDavid]

one common view is that the chassis carries the identity therefore the age. Care needs to be taken in completing the car in later years to only use specifications, materials and modifications of the chassis' period.

[andrewc]

Maybe something like the system in place for road cars and age related plates?

If you're building a special for road use, or a kit car and want a period registration plate, then the DVLA have a points system.

To get an age related plate, you need to get 8 points or more.

Chassis or monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) [5]

Suspension (front and back) - original [2]

Axles (both) - original [2]

Transmission - original [2]

Steering assembly - original [2]

Engine - original [1]

[zefarelly]

I'm just rebuilding my Cortina ( you may have heard!)

based on this system, I'd get top marks . . .despite running gear internals being new/as new . . . . but it was a production car, so relatively easy to source genuine parts.

If, for example you had an elan, or Ginetta G4 . . . or an MGB you might score top marks, but with a brand new car . . .thats the grey area.

Originally Posted by andrewc

Maybe something like the system in place for road cars and age related plates?

If you're building a special for road use, or a kit car and want a period registration plate, then the DVLA have a points system.

To get an age related plate, you need to get 8 points or more.

Chassis or monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) [5]

Suspension (front and back) - original [2]

Axles (both) - original [2]

Transmission - original [2]

Steering assembly - original [2]

Engine - original [1]

[terence]

Ah but dont forget that despite a new body, engine, gearbox and back axle would not be new for the B Joe.
Back to the original question, how long did it take some of the paintings by the 'Masters' to get finished? 1, 2, 3 years or more perhaps.That being the case the painting would still have been classed as 'new' on the day it was completed.

[one-two]

I am no expert, but I would have thought the starting point for an answer that is consistent with appendix K would be when the car or, in this case, something very close to it, first competed?

[rbm]

Originally Posted by one-two

I am no expert, but I would have thought the starting point for an answer that is consistent with appendix K would be when the car or, in this case, something very close to it, first competed?

I'm not so sure, hence the question

if it is the first competed then for example the (1954ish) Keift GP would have been 2008.

and FIA FJ/1B "... Front-engined Formula Junior cars built to race before 31.12.1960...."

against FIA FJ/C1 "...Rear-engined Formula Junior built and raced (or officially entered to race) before 31.12.1960..."

[John Turner]

The situation described rbm is uncannily like the Rob Walker GP car that comes out now and then. Started in the 2.5 litre period - late 50s, but not completed until about 40 years later and appeared a few times at Goodwood and the Classic.,

[one-two]

To continue the thought, I would think the car would also have to be in the spec in which it, or something very similar, competed in period.

[Colin McKay]

I've got another conundrum along these lines...S-type homologated 1.1.66 so assume my 64 car won't be eligible for pre-66 FIA events. Is that correct?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

I've got another conundrum along these lines...S-type homologated 1.1.66 so assume my 64 car won't be eligible for pre-66 FIA events. Is that correct?

AppK does allow for non homologated cars (which in 1964 the 'S' Type was) so not sure if that is so, Colin. Article 3.3.8 refers, but the period car specification has to be proved, and understandably by period documents etc. I would imagine a lorra lorra work........

[one-two]

I think, in the case of the S-type, you probably need to find one competing in an international event prior to 1966. Again I am not an expert, but these are the sort of answers I've got when I have banged my head against Appendix K in the past

[Mike Bell]

Nowadays AppK allows for models without International competition history to apply for and receive HTPs, at the FIAs discretion. Maybe relaxed a bit from a few years ago! Again, period documentation required of what competition history the model did attain.....

[Colin McKay]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Nowadays AppK allows for models without International competition history to apply for and receive HTPs

This is what I have been told, the fact that the car was homologated is now deemed evidence that it was raced in period, however has to be in the right period!!

[one-two]

You're not wrong, but have you ever tried it? Easier to find and show evidence of international competition if you can

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by one-two

You're not wrong, but have you ever tried it?

Yes, I have, at least. With Gilbert the Gilbern, first of the model to be issued with an HTP in 2008. Useful to have an owners club with excellent archive....

Colin, so you just have to get proof of the period specification for the car as an non homologated model, then all the period competition history for same. Easy-peasy! When is the first race?

And apologies- this is going off topic!

[one-two]

Well done Mike - it's proved very hard in other cases. To go back to the original topic, the landscape may also be slightly trickier with race cars. Maybe the original poster could tell us a little more about the specific case?

[morninggents]

Colin, I think your problem with the 'S' type running in pre-66 FIA events is that although the car could be run (as Mike says) even though not homologated in period it would have to run in showroom spec and modified only as per the general App K regs. Any goodies homologated after 01.01.66 could not be used pre-66.
Presumably the 1966 papers would allow bigger carbs, hotter cams, larger wheels, etc.