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30 Nov 2018, 12:50 (Ref:3867002) | #1 | |
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Weber DCOE- When first used?
48's, not 45's as in the thread title - duh!
Anyone know when these were introduced? I have been told that they were certainly around in 1962 but can't find any hard evidence. Last edited by Colin McKay; 30 Nov 2018 at 12:59. |
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30 Nov 2018, 13:51 (Ref:3867009) | #2 | ||
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The 45 is the weapon of choice for the FIA MGB which suggests the 48 was around at the same time 1963(?).
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30 Nov 2018, 14:49 (Ref:3867022) | #3 | ||
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I read that the Cobra prototype had DCOEs in 1962 but I'm not sure which model they were.
Last edited by MGDavid; 30 Nov 2018 at 14:57. |
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30 Nov 2018, 15:13 (Ref:3867026) | #4 | |
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https://www.tecno2.it/cms/downloads/...ioni-1960-1973
This scanned document (no searchable text included but I might be able to create something from if some software I have does not object to Italian) has reference to a 48DCO3 being available for a Maserati 250F. See page 24. I may have missed earlier references as I scanned. So there may be more to be discovered here to provide dating guidance. Other than in the file name I have not spotted any dates for availability. The Document appears to be a combination of several product lists of different years between 1960 and 1973. Wikipedia does not have much either. There may be other sources ... |
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30 Nov 2018, 15:19 (Ref:3867028) | #5 | ||
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I used 48s in my Hot Rod in the late 60s but the ones I used in my Anglia in later years were 50s
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30 Nov 2018, 15:59 (Ref:3867037) | #6 | ||
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I used 45s in the mid 60s on the Anglia (and 40s were available at that time). And I read somewhere that Ferrari were experimenting with side-draught Webers in the early 60s, although size/type was not mentioned.
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30 Nov 2018, 16:17 (Ref:3867039) | #7 | ||
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Thread title changed.
I’d say mid 60s, without doing any research to back that up...... I would like to think that someone like webcon or other Weber specialist dealer could give an accurate answer? |
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30 Nov 2018, 18:09 (Ref:3867078) | #8 | |
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Thanks Mike
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30 Nov 2018, 18:10 (Ref:3867079) | #9 | ||
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The DCO was different from the DCOE. DCOs were around at least as early as 1958. Happen to know this as I did some research on 32DCOs for Delta just a few months ago.
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1 Dec 2018, 11:55 (Ref:3867230) | #10 | |
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From the PDF file linked earlier the 48, in any variant, only appears once, as mentioned, in the "Discontinued" list from 1960.
The 1968 and 1973 documents don't mention a 48 anything at all. Meanwhile ... While looking at those documents ... what was a Ford Anglia Torino? ..... and a quick Google later ..... https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk...-anglia-torino Well I never. |
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1 Dec 2018, 12:27 (Ref:3867238) | #11 | |||
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1 Dec 2018, 13:20 (Ref:3867247) | #12 | |||
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Quote:
Last edited by GORDON STREETER; 1 Dec 2018 at 13:30. |
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1 Dec 2018, 15:29 (Ref:3867261) | #13 | |
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I have an original Weber manual which lists settings for various models .
Can,t see 48s , but 45 DCOE /9 are listed for several cars in 1962 . |
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7 Dec 2018, 10:05 (Ref:3868498) | #14 | ||
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DCO's were the sand cast body hand built carburettor, and were in a lotto winners price bracket for a genuine matching numbers set. Norman Seeny certainly produced very respectable reproductions and were marked as such, The matched set on John Quick's (JQ recently RIP) . WOO 11 disappeared when the car was in the USA, and certainly not with the car on it's return to Europe in 2001 That particular set came from Peter Sargent complete with manifold after Dr Klat fitted injection to the two Peter's lightweight E.
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28 Jan 2019, 07:40 (Ref:3880110) | #15 | ||
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I've opened the thread up to a general discussion reading all types of DCOE. As mentioned by p261brm and mgdavid, the first late 50s sidedraft DCO3 carbs were sandcast, and very exclusive. The DCOE pressure die cast version was introduced a bit later, but when they were first used on specifc cars is causing difficulties with HTP papers. It only affects single seaters and two seater racing cars that come into period E, as detailed below. This is from an MSA inspector and is self explanatory, hopefully. If anyone can unearth any info to help, I'm sure it would be appreciated!
"Quite recently, when submitting HTP applications for two seat and single seater racing cars of a type which competed in the late 1950s or in 1960 with DCOE carburettors fitted, the FIA Historic Compliance Committee have been requesting evidence of identical DCOE type fitment from period. Note; period E – to end of 1960 for single seater and two-seater racing cars. As we all know, HTPs are supposed to be issued to actual cars or cars of an identical specification which competed in an International event in period. Technically the Compliance Committee are correct to ask, then it is the responsibility of the HTP applicant to provide the required evidence. As far as I have recently established, 40 DCOE type carburettors were first produced and available from either very late 1959 or early 1960. 45 DCOE carburettors followed some months later in mid-1960. It would appear very few makes and/or types of cars did actually compete in an International event between mid - to the end of 1960 with DCOE carburettors. However, and as an example, I have come across some evidence in this book “The Story of Lotus” by Ian Smith. In the chapter covering the Lotus 18 F2 cars during the year 1960 it is quoted; “one of which had the new pressure die-cast (and cheaper) Weber 45DCOE carburettors”. Whilst this is not 100% conclusive evidence, it is just the sort of thing my HTP colleagues and I are looking for. See a copy of the front page from the book and the page (including the page number) with the information copies attached. My request is; We need similar evidence or anything you have for other makes and models of cars from this period. Please note; GT and Touring cars are not a problem. These production type cars are homologated or have a catalogued specification. Carburation is often visible in action photographs for most single seater race cars. It is these, but predominantly for two-seater racing cars we are seeking your help and advice. For your information, very recently the fitment of 40DCOEs on a Lotus Eleven has been questioned. I cannot find evidence of such a period fitment. And quite obviously, there is virtually no original 40DCO3 carburettors available and I understand no one makes reproductions. Basic truth now is; if an HTP applicant’s period E car has DCOE carburettors, we need proof of an identical car in an International event in period. What we are wanting is of period evidence of DCOE carburettors of whatever make and model during this short period for single and two-seater racing cars in period E- This in the very short period from between the introduction of DCOE carburettors in early 1960, to the end of period E on 31st December that same year. Any evidence would be greatly appreciated and I am very happy to keep whatever information anyone has on file and for anyone to share. Thank you for those who have helped so far and thank you to anyone else who may be able to help." |
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28 Jan 2019, 19:23 (Ref:3880257) | #16 | ||
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Just to clarify, what is being hunted is period evidence of Weber DCOE carbs being used on single or two seater race cars (i.e. not homologated) at International events up to the end of 1960. Photos, race reports, books......etc.
So far evidence has only been found for F2 Lotus 18 and Cooper T53 cars, but others that could be affected when applying for a first HTP or renewal without evidence to prove DCOE use are the Lotus 11, Lola Mk1 and Elva Mk5. And there’s quite a few of those around..... There’s already a Cooper T43 owner attempting to get an HTP asking the same on Motorsport History, so it’s happening.... |
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29 Jan 2019, 10:34 (Ref:3880386) | #17 | ||
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Apparent and documented research in-house is showing that anything pre-1958 cannot be linked to DCOEs in motorsport.
1959 would seem a sensible year if to consider their introduction to the world of motorsport but this has yet to be properly documented, in accordance with the specific car and specification claimed. Then comes 1960 and press articles such as Motorsport Magazine which in May 1960 does document the use of 45 DCOEs on the Lotus Formula 2 cars at the Bruxelles Grand Prix. Then in May 1960, when detailing the Aintree 200, Brabham on his Cooper did run 42 DCOEs. You will note that this was still so particular and new to the world of motorsport, that it needed a special mention. Other than that, in 1959 the works Lola Mk1 was on SUs, then the Lotus XV was on DCO3s, in 1960 the works Lola Mk1 went to DCO3s still so it wasn't a change that spread across the whole spectrum. You may also consider that DCO3s and DCOEs needed specific and different intake manifolds in order to be mounted so not just a bolt-on change. |
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29 Jan 2019, 12:30 (Ref:3880400) | #18 | ||
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Thanks once again for your input, Duddha.
None of this affects me, but out of curiosity, what will happen to the cars that have previously issued HTPs but are fitted with DCOEs when they shouldn’t be? |
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29 Jan 2019, 12:58 (Ref:3880406) | #19 | ||
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Always a pleasure Mike and I guess the cars will have to be corrected or proven to be in accordance with period.
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29 Jan 2019, 13:23 (Ref:3880413) | #20 | ||
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29 Jan 2019, 14:13 (Ref:3880428) | #21 | ||
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They already compromised, scrutineers not reporting the papers when concerned and getting the owners to carry the work beforehand means it will be the fault of you know whom.
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29 Jan 2019, 16:48 (Ref:3880457) | #22 | ||
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So, if you fit brand new copies of DCOs the cars will become "original" again!
Apparently a few people have made copies of DCOs over the years, with varied success - turns out the originals are rather more complex than they appear and accuracy is important. I assume there were DCO1s & 2s. Lots of cars have DCO3s and some DCO4s. The E in DCOE is presumably for the 5th generation and they changed to letters rather than numbers at that point? |
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29 Jan 2019, 17:06 (Ref:3880469) | #23 | ||
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As the originals were sand cast, would it be cost effective for a manufacturer to reproduce the DCO in the small quantities needed? Then there would be the specific to engine type manifolds needed as well. Can’t see it happening, but it would obviously get a few people out of difficulties!
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29 Jan 2019, 17:48 (Ref:3880474) | #24 | ||
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Seems Jenvey makes something looking like sand casted DCOE's with and injector inside. I guess at least Andy and may be Viva saw this at NEC. Different from a DCO I admit.
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30 Jan 2019, 09:13 (Ref:3880604) | #25 | |||
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C&G used to make 58DCOs. At least one outfit are currently making 45DCOs for Jaguars. Not sure how much the Jag ones are but the 58s were quite (!) expensive. The FIA will probably say the car is worth far more than the cost of the carbs - which is true for some of them but possibly not for some Climax single cam powered cars for example. I guess it depends on your definition of cost effective. |
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