Brabham BTs - Unidentified

[Michael Oliver]

Pardon me for jumping in at such a late stage in your thread (13 pages is impressive by any standards!) but I've just come across a photo of a BT30 and a quick search through the thread (OK, I admit I haven't read every post but I did search by name) reveals no mention of this particular owner.

The guy is a German called Jorg (or Joerg as I cannot show the umlauts over the 'o') Zaborowski. The photo I have seen appears to show a BT30 - this is what the board on the car describes it as - but I have no idea whether or not this is true as I have no knowledge of that particular type of car.

You can find the photo - as well as, incidentally, a lot of pictures of his BT21, which may or may not be of interest - at the following site:

http://palmspringscam.com

Go to 'Modules' on the left, select 'P.S. Gallery' then 'The old days of my Motor Racing'. The photo is in this gallery, along with lots of other interesting stuff. Also, if you are interested, I seem to remember in the gallery labelled 'Palm Springs Car Classic 2004' (the one with the blue car) there are photos of what appears to be a road-registered Lola T70. I have no idea as to the history of this car but Jorg says it is ex-Bonnier and that the owner has had the car since 1979.

Anyway, I digress, but hopefully the BT30 thing may be of interest...

Michael

[cirrus]

Interesting period pictures, but I think the Brabham designations are not quite right. The car described on the placard as a BT21 looks more like an earlier car (maybe a BT15 with wide wheels), due to the short rear uprights with the high bottom wishbone. These were superceded (in F3) when the BT18 ws introduced.

The "BT30" is a much earlier car also. Tauranac F2 Brabhams had very wide-based top front wishbones from the BT23 onwards, together with magnesium front uprights. Earlier cars like this had front suspension components which were virtually indistinguishable from each other, and the ubiquitous Triumph-style front uprights.

I would guess that the pictures of the F3 aviating incident were taken in 1969 - theres a Lotus 59 and a McNamara in the background. I don't want to sound sniffy - period shots like these from a private individual are the sort of thing this forum is all about.

[Michael Oliver]

Cirrus

Thanks for your input - as I said, I don't have the sort of detailed knowledge of Brabhams required to say with confidence what type it might be!

Any ideas what it might be? I notice it suggests it has a 2-litre engine...so presumably an F2, although it describes the car as 'Formula Frei' which I guess roughly translates as 'Formula Free' or what we in the UK would call 'Formula Libre'.

Michael

[Bryan Miller]

Michael.

Thank you, no wonder we all tear our hair out trying to sort out what happened to some of these cars.
As Cirrus has advised , not a BT30 or a BT23/C series.
The engine has me thinking, not Cosworth / BMW , inlet on wrong side , what is it , maybe Schnitzer BMW as I believe these altered the head and had inlet and exhaust opposite std. BMW. But it also appears to have strange restrictor type ram tubes.
I wonder what the chassis number is/was.
Is it the same BT15/MAE car updated over the years with diff. body panels, the BT30? photo looks like about 1974 or so , as two tier rear wings had not come in to use on small bore cars till about then.
Fascinating.
Bryan.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally posted by cirrus
I would guess that the pictures of the F3 aviating incident were taken in 1969 - theres a Lotus 59 and a McNamara in the background.

The event was the F3 race at Neubiberg in Germany 1969. Freddy Kottulinsky's Lotus 59, Helmut Marko in K3 McNamara, Freddy Link in a Tecno-Nova, Jurg Dubler in a Tecno-Nova, Richard Scott in a Chevron B15. The flyer (no.68) is Jorg Zabrowski in a Brabham BT21. He launched off the back of Roland Salomon's Tecno.

Dubler won from Scott, Marko entertained the crowd by going through a straw bale, "with his car so completely covered with straw that the McNamara now looked like a travelling hay bale, and the spectators roared with delighted laughter as they saw two hands appear from deep within the bale as it sped down the the straight.."

A/S Oct 30th 1969 page 19

[Michael Oliver]

Andrew

Agree with you on every point about the 'flyer' except that his name is Zaborowski not Zabrowski!

Bryan

I guess we could ask Zaborowski if it was the same car, he'll probably remember this much, although I wouldn't hold out much hope on the chassis #!

Michael

[allenbrown]

I've been working through this thread identifying Sprint Brabhams and have been amazed how many have been identified. What a thread!

The ones I can't identify are:

Brabham-Ford TC BT14/21 (1.5s) - Geoff Inglis 1972
Brabham-Ford BT16/21B V6 (3.0) - John Taylor 1976/77
Brabham-Ford BT18 (1.6) - John Hart once in 1976 (a BT38 once in 1977 and a BT40 once in 1978)
Brabham-Buick BT18 (3.5) - Richard Thwaites 1970; the Hartleys (and Tony Bradwell) 1971-75
Brabham-Ford BDA BT18 (1.1) - Tom Elton 1971-74
Brabham-Ford/Vegantune TC BT21C (1.6) - Spencer Elton once in 1970
Brabham-Ford/Vegantune TC BT21 (1.6) - Spencer Elton once in 1971 and twice in 1972
Brabham-Ford/Vegantune TC BT18 (1.6) - Spencer Elton twice in 1971 and once in 1972
Brabham-Ford/Vegantune TC BT21/30 () - Spencer Elton once in 1973
Brabham-Ford BT21A (1.6) - John (and Arthur once) Ravenscroft 1971-72
Brabham-Ford TC BT21B (1.6) - David Pullen once in 1971
Brabham-Ford TC BT21B (1.6) - Dennis Chorley once in 1976
Brabham-Ford TC BT21B (1.6) - Leslie Stone once in 1978
Brabham-Oldsmobile BT21 or BT21C Quattro (4.5 or 4.1) - Tony Bradwell 1971 and 1973
Brabham-Holbay Ford BT21 (1.1) - Robin Boucher once in 1987
Brabham-Ford BT23C (1.6) - Maurice Ogier once in 1972
Brabham-Ford BDA BT30 (1.6) - Peter Bull twice in 1974
Brabham-Ford BDA BT35 (1.6) - Tim Painter once in 1977 (shared with Andy Fraser?)
Brabham-Ford BDA BT35 (1.6) - Andy Fraser once in 1977 (shared with Tim Painter?)
Brabham-Cosworth BDE BT35 (2.0) - Bob Marsland once in 1973
Brabham-Cosworth BDE BT38 (1.8) - Paul Edwards 1977/78
Brabham-Ford BT38 (1.6) - John Hart (see his BT18)
Brabham-Hart BDA BT40 (1.6) - John Hart (see his BT18)

The BT23C and the BT35s should fit into our histories but I haven't been able to connect them. I'm guessing someone knows about the Ravenscroft, Bradwell and Elton BT21s.

Thanks

Allen

[allenbrown]

A quick scan of Spencer Elton index entries in Chris Mason's book tells me that Spencer had the ex-Williamson BT21C for the 1970 season and Tom the ex-Hawley/Fenwick BT18.

Also, Richard Thwaites car is said to be ex-Bryan Eccles (p224) - the car Eccles acquired for the 1967 season (p198).

Does that help?

[Chris Townsend]

Arthur and John Ravenscroft in 1971 had the BT21A used in 1970 by Chris Court [this is all either MN or AS] 1968 this car was run by Mickels and 'ex Tony Griffiths'. In 1967 AS gives this as 21A-9.

Elton had at one point an ex Rollinson BT21B from 1968, which was ex Howlings [MN 26.3.70 p.19] and Norman Foulds in 1969. I have this as BT21B-28 though I don't know where that's from. The other option would be the 1968 car run by Dave Berry which Rollinson ran in 1969. I don't know if Elton actually ran this car, but it went to Gerry Wilkins for h/c in 1975
The Elton 21C is ex Nick Williamson, 21C-6, and goes to Peter Varley in 1971.
In 1974 Elton is selling a BT18 'ex Peter Deal/David Wray' so F2.21.66. Deal last appears in the car 1969, so don't know if Elton has it from then. The Hawley/Fenwick car is F2.8.66.
In 1969 Elton has ANOTHER BT18! This one is ex Peter Blankstone [1967] and Peter Lawson [1968] 1970 it goes to Rod Pickering [FL] [ex Lawson and Spencer Elton MN 26.3.70 p. 11] then 1971 Geoff & Tony Lambert [FL] [w/o Ingliston MN 10.6.71 p.19]

Thwaites 1970 BT18, ex Chris Cox, [1968], Brian Eccles [1967] Clive Baker 1966

For the Inglis BT14, try either FL1.1.65 last seen with Jimmy Johnstone 1970 or FL.4.65 with Geoff Lambert in 1971

Any help?
Chris

[allenbrown]

Fantastic! Thanks Chris.

[Bryan Miller]

Chris,

Interesting you have FL-1-65 against the U.K. hillclimb car , I noted this in an Autosport circa 1970.

The BT14 sold new to Bib Stillwell in 1965 has always had this same number , I wonder what the story is.????

[Steve Wilkinson]

The trawling is through ye olde Motoring News and Autosport newspapers and magazines. It turns up all sorts of factoids! Such as.......

Formula Two Brabhams

F2-02-66 - 1966 Gerrad Pillon
F2-42-66 - 1968 Peter Korda
F2-02-65 - 1968 Hans Obrist
F2-33-65 - 1968 Paul Blum
F2-12-64 - 1968 Chris Meek
F2-15-66 - 1968 Gerhard Krammer

I'm going to cross check the preceeding elements of the thread to see if the BT23 and BT30 chassis numbers were identified.

Keep digging

[Steve Wilkinson]

The following is a list of Brabham drivers in the aforementioned championship:

1970
Gray & Agness Mickel in the ex-Hawley BT23B
Alan Napier in a BT18

1971 David Fyfe in the BT30X

1972
Gray & Agnes Mickel in BT35-44
Iain McLaren in a BT35X
Ted Dzierzek in a BT21
John Barr in a BT28

1973
Iain McLaren in a BT36 and for the June Doune only a BT30
Gray and Agnes Mickel in BT35-44
Bob Snelson in a BT23C
Murray McGrath in a BT30X
Peter Varley in a BT21C
Bob Leckie in a BT36 with FVC engine

1974
Bob Snelson in a BT35
Jim Campbell in BT35-44

1975/1976/1977
Jim Campbell in BT35-44

1978
Jim Campbell in BT35-44
Olly Ross in a BT21C

1979
Jimmy Johnstone in a BT30
Ron Cumming in a BT??

1985/1986/1987
Peter Speakman in a BT18

1988/1989
Peter Speakman in a BT21C

[Andrew Fellowes]

Steve, interesting indeed. I speculate that Ian McLaren might have been a BT30 all along. They were sometimes confused by reporters.I wonder which chassis number?

Bob Leckie was BT36-8 but I didn't have the FVC bit in my notes, (and this car is very sadly still missing).

[allenbrown]

This post marks the point at which an assortment of material regarding unidentified Brabhams was split out of the giant Brabham BT28-29-30-35-36 thread into its own thread.

Allen

[Andrew Fellowes]

This seems as good a place as any to add the following (forgive me if I am repeating myself)

2002 the following were known to be in Japan

1 BT16
2 BT21
1 BT28
1 BT29
1 BT30 (#23?)

as well as
BT35X-2 -????
BT36-12

[James Murray]

With refernce to the Peter Speakman BT18 & 21C referred to competing in the Scottish Hillclimb series I can add the following. The BT18 was the ex Winkleman Racing, Jochen Rindt car. Peter bought it from a lady in Birmingham in the early eighties who had inherited it as part of a divorce settlement. He rebuilt it and used it with a 1600 pushrod and latterly with an sca. He was invited to use it at the first Goodwood Festival of Speed and unfortunately the SCA blew up and the car was subsequently sold in the early 90's.

The BT21C was originally Sir Nick Williamson's. The chassis number escapes me. It had a twin cam and FT200 when he owned it. He sold this in the early 90's to Tim Barrington who still owns it I think.

Peter also owned another BT18 which had a Rover V8 engine which was also sold in the early 90's. I think from memory it was always a hillclimb car however I wasn't long out of nappies at the time and can't remember much about it other than it being navy blue. I shall endeavour to contact him to dig deeper into these cars histories. He lives about 5 miles away from me and still competes with a pre war special with a v8 engine.

[allenbrown]

Thanks James. I've quoted your post on the BT21 thread - the car in question is BT21C-6.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Time to bring this thread back to mention a mysterious Brabham in Austrian hillclimbs in 1972.

Erich Breinsberg (spelling according to Autocourse as Autosprint makes a mess of it) takes third place at Dobratsch in a 3.5-litre Brabham-Rover! Various web references call it a F5000 car but I don't think that means it had actually appeared in F5000. The Berry car was still racing in England in 1972.

Anyone have any ideas about this one?

Allen

[Bryan Miller]

Slight possibility it is a car that is here , namely a BT8 ???, this car is purported to be ex factory to BMW some time in the 1960s and fitted at BMW with a 2.0 litre BMW eng. then went to Austria and was fitted with a V8 of some description ,I had to do an initial inspection many years ago in a 2nd storey of a barn , accessed via a horrible ricketty ladder , everything covered in droppings etc. no lights , only a torch , back end had been mutilated with square tubes etc. I think there was some BT8 type bodywork , front only , with it , some paperwork with the car stated ex Austria , also I think a leter from Frank Coltman [ Progess Chassis ] identifying car as being of Brabham heritage / build .
The car at that time was subject of a deceased estate , and had been bought in from Austria at least 10 years or more prior my visit and a lot of money had been paid.
The executor of the estate was asked to supply any other documents , but this never happened , and I haven't a clue where the mess is now.

Bryan.

[allenbrown]

It was running in G8/9, so not a sports car. Sorry - I should have given you that clue.

Allen

[Dan Rear]

Some 1974 A/Sports I've read have Ian Knowles in a BT19 apparently. Was it really ???

Sorry if this has already been covered/discussed elsewhere!

[allenbrown]

Knowles had an ex-Hepworth car, built for David by Frank Coltman but always entered as a Brabham "BT19" as it had BT19 suspension on its BT11-style frame. It's now in historic racing but I'd probably better not say any more...

Allen

[allenbrown]

Dan

Please note down any Brabham BT30s or BT36s you spot in these obscure sprints and hillclimbs in which you've apparently developed an interest.

Thanks

Allen

[Andrew Fellowes]

Sport Auto No.122 March '72

Vds chassis BRABHAM F2 pr c. de c. tr. b. ét. Px int. et mot. Climax 200 CV ét. nf + pces rech. pr barq. proto. mono. Px int. HELIGON, 50, Rue Michelet, 63-MONTEFERRAND TéL: 88.02.54


Ooooo-K, its in French, I've got that far, what is 'pr c. de c. tr. b. ét.' etc etc?