Full Course or Local Yellow?

[Stuart Hill]

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[Stuart Hill]

Does the US system of "Shutting Down" a race have any merits here in the UK?

I can give reasons for any choice but I'm a marshal, not a race driver!!

Got an opinion?????

[Chigley]

Looking at these results so far its a pretty united response.

[Woolley]

Depends on the series, but when you do need to do something, it's gotta go both ways and end this racing for the line/crash on the exit of the last corner/over the start line business. Even NASCAR have stopped that.

[R59]

Yes, come down harder on the transgressors, but that relies on observant observers. I was at Cadwell some years back, and watched James Claridge (Mk1 Lotus Cortina) get poked hard by a well known offender (certain red Scirocco) in the defunct BRSCC Super Road Saloon series, and put on his roof through Hall Bends, where there are lots of marshall posts. There were no reports, and the offender got away with a blatant punt, with James facing a very expensive repair.
The gentleman standing next me used to perform observer duties, but because he wasn't on duty, he wasn't heard by the C of C. The observer on that sector of track was watching the cars ahead of James at the time, not his own sector.

Generally, observers at very good, but sometime they are too thin on the ground, mainly because the marshalls are getting shoddy treatment from the circuits and the race organisers. I remember when Silverstone (BRDC) used to look after the marshalls who worked at the GP. Octagon treated them like.... and as for the camping/caravan facilities offered to the people who make the safe running of the (or any) race possible.... I shall say no more. You all know what I mean.

Regards

Rob. (stirring up another thread)

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by racing59
Yes, come down harder on the transgressors, but that relies on observant observers.

Generally, observers at very good, but sometimes they are too thin on the ground,
Rob.

this is precisely the problem at many circuits these days. Too many marshals (of ALL grades) are being turned-off by many things. (see other threads).

Is it not worth having a re-think now, before we run out of marshals/observers/officials etc, as to how we can safely run race meetings here in the UK??

Is it money that's needed or......
Is it procedures that need changing....???

I don't claim to have the answers, just asking the questions.

[AndyF]

The black/yellow flags have been used in the past, and were met with too many problems. I can't see it working im afraid!

[Tim Falce]

I don't think a full course yellow would work as that would leave all the cars strung out round the circuit and make it almost impossible for marshals towork on the track safely. The yellow black doesn't work because of bad education and some drivers ignoring it. I prefer a red flag and restart, that way at least you get the racing laps back and even if a race is shortened I prefer to lose a couple of laps rather than drive round at 20-30 mph for 4 laps, which is what happened at Brands last time I was there. When the race was restarted there was a 30 second gap between the guy in front of me and the rear of the train at the front. This is not the marshals fault, it is the fault of dipstick drivers not learning or obeying the rules which spoils it for the rest.

[johnw]

Falcemob
If the full course yellow idea was adopted and communicated thoroughly, do you not think that drivers would see it as an opportunity to close any gaps for the restart?
It would however, rely on the lead driver acting responsibly and slowing to the required pace through any incident areas. I guess that they could always black flag anyone not acting responsibly enough. It then wouldn't take long for the message to get through.
I suspect that the main problem with the black and yellow was that it wasn't seen often enough for the behaviour to become embedded. (We haven't raced under one in sixteen seasons.)
Mind you, as can be read in these pages, some drivers seem to be unaware of how to react under waved yellows, so obviously the penalties are not harsh enough or applied consistently enough to breed compliance.

[carrera]

Perhaps the CoC could invite a random selection of drivers to sit an exam prior to taking to the track, fail the exam - no racing that day.

[thebear]

Originally posted by johnw
Falcemob
If the full course yellow idea was adopted and communicated thoroughly, do you not think that drivers would see it as an opportunity to close any gaps for the restart?

As applied in the US, the double yellow (full course) is accompanied by a pace/safety car. Circulation speed is controlled as well as directions to the appropriate side of the track to avoid workers. Prior to the re-start, cars are waved by until the leader is directly behind the pace/safety car. Depending upon the organization, the pits may remain open or may be closed. Waving yellow flags are indicated at the incident.

[Tim Falce]

Johnw, Correct me if I am wrong, I am under the illusion that the yellow/black has only been in use for 3 or 4 seasons. I have been in 3 races where it has been used and in all three it has been either ignored by some drivers leading to disqualifications in two races or drivers not knowing what to do in the other. Each time by so called experienced drivers. So the flag doesnt work, for whatever reason. A full course yellow would be exactly the same. It is all very nice when the offenders are penalised but that doesnt give me back my £170 + entry fee for driving round a track at 40mph with no hope of making up lost time at the end.
just to illustrate what I mean here is a bit of my race report from my web site. A bit tongue in cheek but if you take the time to read it, you will get my point.

Going into Clearways for the second time a silver Revival D-type left the track and managed to plough through the gravel and rejoin behind me. He managed to get past me by the time we exited Clearways the next time round. This was when things started to get confusing. Coming out of Paddock hill the yellow flags were waving for Peter Cleal, who had put his Caterjag into the gravel. On passing the green I overtook a back marker and was just about to pass Peter Reynolds in his V12 XJS when the yellow and black flag was displayed. This means that the leader has to slow to around 50mph and the rest of the field catches up and forms a train behind. I have yet to be in a race when this actually happens, and today would be no different. I could see the Silver D-type up ahead slowly pulling away with the rest of the pack and Peter's XJS immediately in front of me slowing to around 40mph.

I knew what would happen next and my frustration was building to the point where I was sitting a couple of feet behind Peter, frantically waving at him to speed up, but at times we were down to 25mph and I think Peter must have thought that it was a very pleasant way to spend a Sunday afternoon, cruising round the Kentish country side, no doubt with the New Seekers playing on his eight track.

This continued, with I'd like to teach the world to sing and Circles blasting out of his woofers and me pulling what little hair I have, out of it's roots for a couple of laps. I then saw that the offending Caterjag would be out of the way by the time we came round next time so I dropped back and waited until we exited Clearways and floored it so I could be level with Peter as we passed the green flag, which is the only time you can start racing again

[Chigley]

Tim, did you approach Peter and ask him if he knew what the b/y flag was and if he knew what he was supposed to do?

[johnw]

Falcemob
I don't know exactly when the B/Y flag was introduced, but thought it was more than 5 years ago. I agree that it didn't work and indirectly led to the death of Nick Fairman at Mallory, reason enough to abandon it.
Your race report is enlightening and must have been hugely frustrating.If you extend my penalty idea, the Peter in your report could be black flagged as he obviously displayed ignorance of the the rules. That would remove him from blocking you and you could have caught up with the pack.
Your concern about a full course yellow not working is real, but on that basis there is nowhere left to go. We just have to educate evryone and punish the offenders.

All of us know that the yellow means no overtaking, and understand that the waved yellow means that there are marshals or drivers in imminent danger, so I would have thought it not impossible to educate drivers to use the static yellow areas to close up, whilst slowing appropriately in the waved yellow zones.

If we cannot get this working and end up with red flags instead, inevitably we will get races shortened and the entry fee will seem ever more exorbitant.

thebear
The big difference is that our races are so short in comparison with yours, by the time we get a safety car out and get it into position, the race is over.

carrera
Excellent idea. It would soon get everyone in line.

[thebear]

Originally posted by johnw
Falcemob
thebear
The big difference is that our races are so short in comparison with yours, by the time we get a safety car out and get it into position, the race is over.

The `safety car' is dispatched in order to secure the course and collect drivers even at `club' races which are eight laps (~15 miles). If the race ends with a `safety car' parade, so be it. The Operating Steward (Clerk) responsible for the race in process is aware of laps remaining, the time schedule for the event and the situation at the site of the incedent. He has the ability (per the regulations) to finish early or cancel the race by Black Flag along with the Checkered flag.

[Tim Falce]

Chiley, admited I didn't approach him afterwards.
John, if you lose 4 laps cruising round under Y/B or a shorter race, give me a shorter race.
The other problem with a misinterpreted Y/B is that if there is 2 trains going round or the leaders are going too fast, then what chance have the marshals got of safely clearing the track.

I agree it is down to education, and it is generaly the more experienced drivers who ignore the rules, Did anyone notice in the Aston race at Brands a few weeks ago where someone ignored 3 black/oranges and 2 blacks? Dont know his excuse but how can you miss them?

[Chigley]

Guys, getting slightly off thread, and this maybe should be under the Marshals Good Idea thread, but its still relevant here; how about introducing some form of test / exam when drivers join a series or reapply / resubscribe to that series. The aim being to ensure that they know what the current regs for the series are plus track knowledge i.e flags, speed limits...... you know where I coming from!!

[johnw]

Good idea Chigley
I'll talk to our guys about exactly that.

[Woolley]

They could do a test for us marshals, too. Multiple choice. a pace car situation occurs when:
a) The black and yellow flag is shown.
b) A safety car is on track, accompanied by yellow flags and an SC board, the flags waved when the crocodile is in the sector.
c) as above but the flags are waved at all times
d) as above but the flags are not waved
e) as above (any answer) but followed by a green flag at all posts.
f) as above, but green flag is waved at all posts.
g) as above, but green flag is at the start line only.

Correct answer: err, depends on what's racing at the time.

And we wonder why it gets confusing...

[thebear]

Originally posted by Woolley

Correct answer: err, depends on what's racing at the time.

And we wonder why it gets confusing...

:confused: Some of the rules may apply only on the the second Wednesday of the week and then only during certain phases of the moon.

[johnw]

Hell's bells Woolley,
I should stop marshaling and take up astro-physics instead.
John

[Woolley]

The standard response to a Safety Car type incident is:

1) stick out the same flag/boards as the previous post.
2) Dive for your bag and dig out the instructions (if you had any) and check if a) that was right and b) what happens next.
3) Establish sign language communication with the posts either side and see if you can agree on a standard approach!

No joke, i once watched 3 adjacent posts who were all operating the flags differently change simultaneously, so that they were still all different!

[Tim Falce]

No joke, i once watched 3 adjacent posts who were all operating the flags differently change simultaneously, so that they were still all different!

I am glad marshals can do it a bit wrong as well, A couple of months ago we had at 4 consecutive posts, waved yellow, blue, staionary yellow and black and yellow. I thought I had imagined it.