What Grid Size Would You Want?

[Dutton]

I realise we are currently limited to 24 cars (IIRC), but that is not relevant in relation to this thread.

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This has just come into my mind in the last couple of minutes, and it got me to thinking. There seems to be a general consensus that more cars is better (I am part of this group). However, it strikes me that there needs to be some sort of limitations in place.

It must get to a point where there are too many, but what that number is tricky to say.

I am thinking in terms of the practicalities of constant lapping, like if there were, for the sake of argument, 60 entrants.

Also, surely the points system would have to reformed at some point in order to keep a reasonable incentive present. For example, if there were 50 cars taking part but only the to 8 got points; that, to me, would seem a tad harsh.

I think it likely there would be a natural equilibrium point, not a specific number but rather a range, which would be reached. What this is would depend on the realities of the various factors involved.

Anyway, the question(s) is(are) this:

What do you think is the ideal number (or number range) of cars that should take part in F1? Why do you think this? What conditions would be need to be present to make this viable?

[Russ-Turner]

I'd be happy with 24.

[Kicking-back]

26 is the "traditional" number.

[ASCII Man]

26 to 28 is ideal IMO.

[Dutton]

(KB) Do you think 26 is the ideal number then?

In an ideal world, if all teams were reasonably competitive, I would like to see a field somewhere around 36. However, given the nature of F1, getting that many broadly competitive teams would be difficult.

So, constrained by reality, if given a choice, I would rather have fewer teams but are more competitive than more but lots of guys miles behind.

However, being constrained by current reality is not a pre-requisite of this thread.

What would need to happen in order to make a grid of 36 that are all reasonably competitive? Hrrrm, there is the thing to ponder.

I will have to get back to you on that.

[Kicking-back]

I think going over 30 cars would cause too many problems with traffic, first corner congestion, pitting etc etc

[danieljboys]

26 cars here as well, purely because that was how many started each GP when I began watching it in the early 90's. When you've become used to 26, 20 (or in occasionally races 18) starters makes the grid and the Championship appear weak IMHO.

[chillibowl]

for me the worst part of any race is when an accident occurs. partially because of the risk of injury but also because of increasingly long safety car periods and the difficulties associated with removing all those carbon fiber shards. more cars will only decrease the spectacle by increasing the number of racing incidents.
so for me i think 20 is enough.

[Dutton]

KB

The traffic thing I can see. That is one of the things, but I am uncertain what figure would cause it to be a big issue. Why do you think over 30 would be the mark it would become a problem?

I don't see why the first corner should be any more congested. The line would just be longer I think.

Likewise pitting congestion. It seems to me the issues would remain the same, it is just the length of the line would be extended as it were.

Chili

I agree about the problem of lengthy SC periods; this seems to be getting worse as time goes on.

I think perhaps one approach may be to introduce some principle that says if the SC is out for more than, say, 5 laps, and isn't going to be able to be called in, then the race should stop.

[SpawnyWhippet]

I wouldn't like to see less than 24 or more than 28, for the reasons stated above.

[Dutton]

In the case of 26/28 cars: would people prefer to see those entries set ala the current scenario, or else go back to a pre-qualifying system (assuming there would be enough interest)?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I think perhaps one approach may be to introduce some principle that says if the SC is out for more than, say, 5 laps, and isn't going to be able to be called in, then the race should stop.

how many restarts would you allow before a race was called? one race like this could potentialy be a bigger debacle than Indy.

as for the pitlane, i guess we have to be limited to the number of availible garages, more than 2 entries for the existing teams could solve this but sqeezing in 3 race teams (and they would need this just to get the car started) per garage would just be too crowded.

imo, 22 or 24 next year is just going to make things messy.

[SpawnyWhippet]

I would like quali to be 4x 10 mins, all cars must run in each session, unlimited laps, fastest lap in any session sets the grid.

[Dutton]

Chili

The other side is you can just make more garages.

You think 22 or 24 will be messy? Interesting. I didn't think there was any particular problem in the past when running 26 (perhaps my memory is failing me).

With regards the restart thing, there are not that many safety car periods (although this year seemed to be pretty high in them), and usually they are reasonably brief. The long-perdiods are certainly not that common, and, to me, a restart is preferable to losing 10 laps or more under SC conditions. I don't think it is likely you would see the need for more than, say, 2 restarts in a race. Even then, that would be rather rare. One the most you most likely normally see.

Bear in the 5-lap figure was plucked out simply as a figure with no particular in-depth thought applied to it. It may well be 10-laps, or 8-laps would be more appropriate.

The restart process would be perfectly efficient. Line-up on the grid in the order as would be appropriate, and then sit there and wait until the problem is cleared. Then, say, give a two minute warning. Formation lap, re-start.

I haven't thought this through in minute detail of course, so it is thought experiement as much as anything.

andy

Would the perdiods be separated in anyway?

[BootsOntheSide]

I suppose teams do need more garage space now than they did in the days of 26 car grids, for all the extra equipment - althoguh surely with new rules banning spare cars and limiting pre-race adjustments this would now be less of an issue.

24-28 is the most you could reasonably have starting a race without increasing the risk of accidents, especially in the pitlane, and potentially making things slightly farcical. The new qualifying system would need modifying for more than 24 cars - with 28 you could have 3 10-minute sessions each eliminating 6 cars before going to a 20-minute 10-car battle for the pole? If more than 28 enter you would reasonably need pre-qualifying, anything else is too much. Racing championships worldwide, especially in single-seaters, have showed little benefit to having more than about 24 cars.

[SpawnyWhippet]

Most of the races that I've attended seem to give each team 3 garages, with no spare cars they will only need 2, which frees up an extra 10 garages to accommodate 5 more teams.

[Dutton]

andy

Would it not be more than that though? The current pitlanes presumably must have enough room for 12 teams to have 3 garages?

So 12*3 = 36, then take off 12 from that. That would leave room for 6 extra teams on top of 12. So 18 teams, making 36 cars.

boots

With 28 why not have the first two sessions set 9 places each? That would leave 10 for a shoot-out.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Dutton

You think 22 or 24 will be messy? Interesting. I didn't think there was any particular problem in the past when running 26 (perhaps my memory is failing me).

i suppose it wasnt as much of a concern in the past, but certainly now with the saftey first ideologly combined with the widespread use of carbon fiber composites and the break up and crumple design of the cars the amount of debris from an accident is more/ more seperate pieces than the past and that would only be magnified by the number of cars on track at any one time.

anyways i think of the SC period as a necessary evil, in that its better than a restart, and therfore every effort should be made to reduce the frequency of them rather than seeing how many we can have before it just becomes silly.

[Dutton]

I see the SC as preferable to restarts when it is going to be, say, a quick 2-3 lap fix up job. However, I would much rather see a restart than 10-laps wasted under a SC.

Naturally, the more cars there are the more likelihood there is of an accident occuring. How do you know where to draw the line though? What says we have too much risk now, so we should reduce the grid to 16 to reduce the chances?

[SpawnyWhippet]

Can't remember the exact number of garages, but theres usually some empty ones where they scrutineer and park the marshalls coats etc.

[Dutton]

Yep, there must be empty ones. At least enough to cover the 12 team potential, or at least that would seem logical to me.

[chillibowl]

agreed a restart if better than 10 laps wasted under SC.

and on another note aside from the on track difficulties, there also the problem for race organizers and track owners.
more cars will require more support staff and increased logistics dealing with X more people and teams. even if the exisiting pits did not require any renos, supporting structures like medical facilities would have to be increased. tracks would have to be redisigned to allow for more run off areas. then theres the need for accomadations for the teams and more space on the Fia cargo planes. and certainly Bernie would charge more based on the number of entrants.

all of which would only increase the costs of F1, drive out the smaller teams and leave us back with 20 (or so i hope)

[Dutton]

Why would there need to be increased run-off areas?

Bernie would just charge the teams for the privellige of freight as he does now, and thus would provide the service as he does now.

The increase in support staff and that is a valid point, that could prove problematic once a certain point is reached.

I also agree with the equilibrium effect, but that could be different in the sport itself was perhaps operated differently in some respects if a certain number more teams was a desire.

I'm not sure it would necessarily see a drop back to twenty, but could well, as things stand, act as a limiter for you at not much over.

[SpawnyWhippet]

Then again, you may get economy of scale, whereby its cheaper per team to run with 14 teams than only 10...

[Mystery]

Personally, I would like 26 car grids, with at least 30 cars trying to get them. But I can dream. 24 would at least be close to that and would be perfectly acceptable. 20 seems not anything like enough to me. The 18/19 car grids in CCWS have been painfully small and given that at any race at least half of them are hopeless then it has been difficult viewing at times.