MSA Issues - HTP cost and related concerns

[eclectic]

The MSA demand how much for an HTP????


Just got this forwarded on from Duncan Rabagliati of the Formula Junior Assn.

"The 2006 MSA Bluebook announces that the fees for an HTP rose on 1st January from £260 to £400 !! [£250 to MSA from £110 – the Registrars fee for inspection remains @ £150 + travel expenses]

There has been no announcement, nor has the increase been notified to the Registrars or the MSA Historic Committee

As the MSA are the only provider in UK, and all historic cars must replace their FIA HVIFs by 31 12 2006, it must be open to consider whether such an increase could be challenged by judicial process.

However, in the meantime, all those who feel that this increase is wholly unjustified may wish to make their feelings known to

MSA
Motor Sports House
Riverside Park
Colnbrook
SL3 OHG

Fax 01753 682938
Email jsymes@msauk.org "

Please forward on this to all Comp Licence Holders that you know of, particularly if they are combative lawyers!

[Steve Wilkinson]

Whereabouts in the Blue Book is it listed?

[zefarelly]

hmmm, last year I paid £110 to the MSA, £150 to Alan Putt, and took the car to his house for inspection.

if it costs £500, it'll add more to tha saleable value of your car, if you don't need it don't bother.

I do think top whack for replacing old papers is a bit off however, perhaps a nominal charge for paper shuffling etc. but not much more

[aiwa]

If you would like to add fuel to this fire then compare the costs of race and entrants licences between the various ASNs in Europe.

[jamesholland]

I note from their website that the MSA proudly likens itself to the Civil Service!
At least we know all the fee increases are necessary to support a bureaucracy.

[PeterMorley]

It depends what you get for your money.

For the increased fee it would be reasonable to expect that they might do some work, perhaps they will complete the form themselves (e.g. take the measurements & other details) rather than expect the owner to do all the work and merely stamp his work.

Presumably it includes the cost of the photos - which the form states "must be from a chemical negative only" (no polaroids or computer prints!), they must be getting more expensive in these digital days!!

The FIA used to specify the cost of the form - the only variable was the fee charged by the registrar (some of whom must have had incredibly well paid daytime jobs judging by their rate for stamping an already completed form)!

Presumably the current rule book doesn't mention a price and the MSA are benefitting from the oversight? Or could they be in line for a wrist slapping?

Looking at the new form I'm amused to see that it asks for no reference at all to the car's "identity" (apart from location of chassis numbers of the frame), all you will have is the FIA vehicle identity number (e.g. a reference number for their bit of paper/database entry).
So if you had 2 identical cars, you might only need one form.........
(A bit like Max & Bernie's past when their F1 cars might have swapped paperwork occassionally).

If everyone who has an existing form simply refuses to pay this amount then the authorities will have to do something about it (e.g. trade old for new forms at reasonable price). The current form is valid until at least the end of the year and if no one has a new form the following year the race organisers will have to accept existing forms.

At least the MSA know what an entrant's licence is, I tried to get one from the Belgians and couldn't get anyone to understand what I meant!! And their race licence prices are incredible, making the MSA look cheap......

[L-G Sjöberg]

You can save 10% by getting the HTP in Sweden. The fee there is "only" SEK 5000.00 which is approx £360. Seriously, the debate about the HTP fee is going on in Sweden as well, where everyone (i.e. everyone who needs a new HTP for a car with an existing HVIF form) questions what we get for the cost. Suggestions that cars should be allowed to race in national events using the old form have remained unanswered. (And just by coincidence the price for the HTP happened to increase compared to the old HVIF now that it became mandatory for everyone to replace the HVIF).

[zefarelly]

when I got mine I did everything myself, and I mean everything . . .it would never had happened otherwise. I don't think its just the MSA being under resourced, its the FiA being ******* incompetent as well from what I've heard

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by jamesholland

I note from their website that the MSA proudly likens itself to the Civil Service!
At least we know all the fee increases are necessary to support a bureaucracy.

Spot on James, I've no idea what there is to be proud about being like the Civil Service! Self-serving bureaucrats, only happy when building their empires, and leaching off those who have no choice but to pay their taxes/fees.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Spot on James, I've no idea what there is to be proud about being like the Civil Service! Self-serving bureaucrats, only happy when building their empires, and leaching off those who have no choice but to pay their taxes/fees.

Mind you that does sound familiar!

[RTH]

Presumably they will not be happy until they have stopped everyone from racing.

[Patrick Sumner]

I have never posted here but I am moved to do so by what I understand is being said here, namely that although one’s car has a FIA HVIF one will have to have an HTP (whatever that stands for) by the end of this year and furthermore you will have to pay £400 for it. If this is correct I think it is absolutely scandalous. If the new document is so important, common sense tells you that you need only complete a new form, send it in with the old one for checking and stamping and pay a nominal fee. In my case I returned to racing in 2003 after a 27 year break in a car I’d restored and already I find that most of my race kit, plus the seat belts, and the fire extinguisher are out of date, with the bag tanks for next year. Then there’s the small matter of preparing the car for racing which I foolishly thought was the reason I did this. Many I am sure are in the same boat. I cannot be alone in finding these governing bodies out of control and I question what their purpose is in life, for example I could happily forego the quarterly glossy from the MSA which goes straight in the bin (having read the latest parental punch up in the karting world!). They have adopted the attitude of our rulers, namely just look for another angle when you want some more cash.

Why on earth we all put up with this I do not know, in fact I’m not sure I shall bother anymore, I’ve never liked authority and like it even less as the years go by. Wouldn’t it be nice if the historic world just said NO as Peter Morley says. No chance I fear.

[Al Weyman]

Wow Patrick you don't pull punches mate and I have to say I do go along with a lot of what you say having returned at the later half of last year after an 8 year layoff.

Read ss_colins post The future of british motorsport http://tentenths.com/forum/search.php?searchid=136955 you may well have a Brother in Arms.

[Eddy V]

Why is it that the men in blazers ***** everything up? If it isn't in the UK, it is in Belgium or Germany, but hassle it is with those people.
And the worrying thing is that most of them (at least over here) are former racers.

[zefarelly]

the HTP is a technical passport to replace the old FIA homologation forms.
some of us need FiA papers for competition, but fir many of us not. so its not compulsory. I do personally agree with the FiA safety standards, but thats nothing to do with HTP's. I sincerely hope the MSA see sense and start renewing old FiA papers with new HTP's for a sensible sum, ie £100 with old forms, and new photos, its a very simple process, the applicant fills in a std form etc so they have very little to do for their money.

I paid for my homologation papers, prepped the car, paid for the HTP ( I filled the form in and emailed and posted it back) I also paid for the Inspection. 1 person earned £150 for an hour work on his doorstep, another earnt £110 for checking the form, signing it and posting a printed coopy back to me with a stamp on.

does the term 'money spinning racket' mean anything to us all ?

[jamesholland]

It's a depressing fact that bureaucracy has to continuously tinker with rules merely to justify its own existence.
It reminds me of that wonderful sitcom "Yes Minister" where Jim Hacker was Minister of Administrative Affairs

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I paid for my homologation papers, prepped the car, paid for the HTP ( I filled the form in and emailed and posted it back) I also paid for the Inspection. 1 person earned £150 for an hour work on his doorstep, another earnt £110 for checking the form, signing it and posting a printed coopy back to me with a stamp on.

does the term 'money spinning racket' mean anything to us all ?

Certainly makes me wonder where you apply for one of these jobs!!

I've always wondered what process is used to elect (?) registrars, I assume they are required to have specialist knowledge in some area of historic racing?

[Patrick Sumner]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Wow Patrick you don't pull punches mate and I have to say I do go along with a lot of what you say having returned at the later half of last year after an 8 year layoff.

Read ss_colins post The future of british motorsport http://tentenths.com/forum/search.php?searchid=136955 you may well have a Brother in Arms.

Yes Al I’m afraid I might have gone over the top! Having only recently rebuilt the car I do realise that items are lifed and that’s the rules if you want to play the game. However I find this identity form scam particularly irksome, as like others, having spent £245 in 2002 obtaining the FIA HVIF logic tells me that should be a one off expense and to change the rules and charge again is downright dishonest. But more than that, it shows a total disregard from those in charge towards historic car owners. The all pervading “professional” racing scene with its obscene expenditure and endless talk of “budgets” appears to have blighted the minds of these officials and they have lost any sense of the value of money. The £400 is not an insignificant sum. As if to reinforce the point, a recent Motorsport News editorial was discussing the merits of the Hans device and concluded that every driver should consider one as the cost was only a small part of the “budget”. Well £500+ represents 5% of my annual racing cost and that is not, in my view, a small part, and so even MN seem to have been seduced by the high spending world of pro racing.

That’s my lot on this subject but I still believe we should all refuse to pay. Thanks for the ss_colins link which my tired old brain will need a week to assimilate!

[Peter Mallett]

Patrick,

Welcome to our friendly forum. Take some time to wander around. In particular you'll find everyone's favorite curmudgeon (that's you Al) in Nat and Club, where the cost of upgrading 12 month old tyres to those with a tread will be on everyone's (or at leastr Al's) lips.

Being serious,

The HTP is a godsend for those like me who don't have an original car and have built (and admit to so doing) a replica in accordance with established regs. It does mean that whilst the value doesn't increase the provenence of the car is established.

As to spending £500.00 to do it? Well if necessary I would. It already costs me around £400.00 for the licence so added to running costs repairs etc. What else is money for? But yes it is expensive.

[Al Weyman]

In particular you'll find everyone's favorite curmudgeon (that's you Al) in Nat and Club, where the cost of upgrading 12 month old tyres to those with a tread will be on everyone's (or at leastr Al's) lips.

Oh you *itch Peter, you wait if I ever get to meet you on the track even with me worn out tyres.

[Peter Mallett]

Lol,

If you sold a couple of those sheds you'd have the money for tyres!

I do agree that there is a more serious position here. The cost of motorsport is crippling anyway (even taking my flippant attitude to it), so we aren't looking to bring anyone in who can't pay their way.

Then to impact that income with high cost/low value "benefits" does seem asinine.

[Ted Walker]

Peter(Morley) as one of the elected people who inspect and process the HTPs I can assure you that we spend a lot of our own time ,and monies so that people like your good self can go historic racing .

[jamesholland]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

Peter(Morley) as one of the elected people who inspect and process the HTPs I can assure you that we spend a lot of our own time ,and monies so that people like your good self can go historic racing .

If you carry out the inpections AND the processing what does the MSA do?

[Patrick Sumner]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

Peter(Morley) as one of the elected people who inspect and process the HTPs I can assure you that we spend a lot of our own time ,and monies so that people like your good self can go historic racing .

I was intending to leave this subject alone but! I’m sure you spend a lot of time on this job and it's not you inspectors who have instigated this new arrangement, I hope. But look at it from my, and probably others, point of view. I raced my car in 1971 when new, it’s been in my garage ever since and has been totally rebuilt using as much as possible from the original and all the replaced parts have been kept. Duncan and Marcus know me and the car and Marcus carried out the inspection. So what is so different three years later that I have to go through the hoops again. If I’ve cheated in some way then the car wouldn’t match the existing papers, so I cannot see why a new set of papers cannot be prepared and rubber stamped for a nominal fee. Peter Mallett and others have a different situation and I can see the need for verification and naturally they would happily pay the cost of making their replica “legal”. I could go on and on!

And yes James Holland, you’re so right, what do the MSA do?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Patrick Sumner

I was intending to leave this subject alone but! I’m sure you spend a lot of time on this job and it's not you inspectors who have instigated this new arrangement, I hope. But look at it from my, and probably others, point of view. I raced my car in 1971 when new, it’s been in my garage ever since and has been totally rebuilt using as much as possible from the original and all the replaced parts have been kept. Duncan and Marcus know me and the car and Marcus carried out the inspection. So what is so different three years later that I have to go through the hoops again. If I’ve cheated in some way then the car wouldn’t match the existing papers, so I cannot see why a new set of papers cannot be prepared and rubber stamped for a nominal fee. Peter Mallett and others have a different situation and I can see the need for verification and naturally they would happily pay the cost of making their replica “legal”. I could go on and on!

And yes James Holland, you’re so right, what do the MSA do?

This is the crux of the matter. Once issued with approval paperwork no matter what bits of alphabet soup you use to identify it a car has been classified as meeting certain criteria. If the organising body/bodies bring in new paperwork it MUST be the simplest thing in the world to issue the new version to an existing customer and the costs for doing this must be reasonable. Therefore the introduction of this exhorbitant fee smacks of the MSA making money out of the exercise. Surely they would be better off looking at customer relations and keeping the costs within reason.

The trouble is when you have a monopoly prices invariably rise!

Has anyone looked into the cost of having the paperwork issued in France for example?