Why so much broken glass at Brands today (25 Aug)?

[Al Weyman]

After the Group 1 race today half the field had damaged screens and front lights when for what ever reason (orders from above?) it seemed the marshals failed to sweep the track properly after a car went into the gravel and then drove across the track. Hate to be critical but I recon the damage must have been hundreds of pounds worth and was unacceptable, I have never seen anthing like this before one of the cars looked like a shot gun had been fired at it with at least twenty or thirty holes and all four lights smashed, one car suffered a stone that went clean through the screen which could have been nasty if it had hit the driver. Are they using bigger stones in the gravel traps now or something?

[mattt]

Did it happen all during the one race

[The SpeCTator]

A quantity of gravel remained on the track after an Avenger went in the gravel at Paddock, it was on the main racing line and was fired at speed to following competitors, however this was not the only car off so could be elsewhere too.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by mattt

Did it happen all during the one race

Yes in one race only, it was the Avenger incident that caused the problem but why was it not swept afterwards. If its the size of the gravel has changed to accomadate F1 and DTM then maybe more care should be taken with the clean up operation. I never made the race but my screen would have cost in excess of £200 if I lost it and I would have been a bit peed to say the least plus the headlights would probably have gone as well. I will try to post a picture tomorrow of one of the cars as i have never seen the like of it before. BTW I noticed when we were at Croft they used a road sweeper, seemed a good idea to me.

[mattt]

i weren't there, so i don't know what actually happened but using a roadsweeper while a race was still ongoing would be dodgy as would marshals being out there doing sweeping on the track under yellow flags.

If you direct the question to the marshals forum, someone who was there may be able to shed light on the situation

[Al Weyman]

So stop the race then and have done with it. It would be preferable than having the agg and expense of replacing your screen and headlights, its just not acceptable IMHO and would be my preferred option we are all only amatuers and doing it for fun and mostly self funded.

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

it seemed the marshals failed to sweep the track properly after a car went into the gravel

Did they fail to sweep it or did Race Control not give them enought time to do the job properly ?

[Woolley]

Not having been there, I can't comment on specifics, but the obvious (usual) reasons will probably be from the following:

Race control giving 'no more time' instruction.
Not enough marshals to do the job properly.
Enough marshals but only two brooms...
There were other jobs needing doing leaving insufficient time to finish other stuff (how long did it take to recover the car which subsequently dumped the gravel?)

Reading the original post, or course, the question may not be phrased correctly. Not so much 'why did the marshals not clean up properly' as 'why did one of your fellow competitors drive on circuit after being recovered from the gravel?' From personal experience he will almost certainly have been told and ignored the advice (I've seen this happen frequently). We do our best but sometimes it's like babysitting, and if we then delay everything by extensively sweeping the resultant mess, we then get moaned at because there wasn't time for everyone to have their full race durations... (see multiple other threads).

[Al Weyman]

I would say as a spectator possibly the later I doubt it was a lazyness issue as the guys always seem to strive to do a damned good job but whatever the reason there will be a few competitors phoning Autoglass in the next day or two. that was in answer to Gachjoels post in answer to Woolley the guy in the car that went off went out of his way to drive on the grass very responsibly so that was not the issue.

[Woolley]

OK, thanks Al. As I said, my post was speculation based on previous experience rather than any knowledge of this specific incident. All of the list are things that I've seen happen on other occasions.

ps (I've closed the marshals' thread with a note to come here to post so that all of the replies can end up in one thread).

[chezza]

Brands is notorious for having lots of stones on it anyway (we always seem to have a great deal of windscreen trouble there).

If the car went off and then returned to the track in the same race that you are in it is not common practice for marshals to sweep the circuit during the race (if it is neutralised under safety car a limited sweep to get rid of the main bulk my happen) it would be left until the race had finished and would be swept between sessions.

[Al Weyman]

The car went off, was dragged out and drove at more or less right angles across the track onto the grass and remained there as far as I could see till he got it off the circuit, the race had been stopped and restarted I believe. As I asked previously has there been a change in the stone size in the gravel traps of late to accomadate some of the more illustious championships like DTM and A1GP?

[chezza]

It is not something that I am aware of, it would have been done over the winter 07/08 as it would be a significant amount of work.

[Stephen Green]

There has been no change to the size of gravel at Paddock Hill or any other bend at Brands. A 'slippery surface' flag was shown for the first lap of the restart to warn of gravel on the track although the bits I saw were off the racing line and right on the outer edge of the track. (I was the Post Chief at Post 3, the entrance to Paddock all weekend)

[Al Weyman]

A slippery surface flag to me means oil on the track not gravel and if it means you expensive windscreens get smashed, I am sorry given the choice I still say the race should have been stopped and the track swept properly. Maybe this should be taken into account when full bodied tin tops are on the track or make it mandatory that we all run Lexan screens.

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

A slippery surface flag to me means oil on the track not gravel and if it means you expensive windscreens get smashed, I am sorry given the choice I still say the race should have been stopped and the track swept properly. Maybe this should be taken into account when full bodied tin tops are on the track or make it mandatory that we all run Lexan screens.

Unfortunately this is a common misconception, and something that is brought up repeatedly in training days. The red/yellow flag does not just mean oil - it can be used for anything that might make the track surface slippery.

Going back to the main point, I can't comment on the specific incident as I wasn't there, but in general if the car was recovered from the gravel under a race stop, then it would be standard practice to sweep behind it to get rid of the bulk of the gravel. As Wooley has mentioned. lack of equipment or time pressures from upstairs would most likely be the reason for this not being done.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

A slippery surface flag to me means oil on the track not gravel

... nope, it means there may be something on the track which will cause it to be slippery (oil, gravel, the "wrong type of leaves", etc...) - can also be used to warn of small amounts of debris (e.g. bodywork) which is not sufficiently hazardous to warrant a yellow - In fact, IIRC, when I was given my on-post flag training, I was told to put a slippery flag out for a floppy which had been knocked out into the middle of the circuit on a corner where it wouldn't have been seen until late.

[Hepatic]

For the big meetings (A1/DTM/BTCC/WTCC) the circuit will usually hire in sweepers but anything else and its down to us marshals. If the number of marshals was sufficient i'm sure the number of brooms wouldn't have been, max i've ever seen on a post is 2. If the guys that needed to clean the track were also helping the recovery, then the car is the 1st priority. Only after thats done and if there is time (which we are always short of) then they'd do their best to clean up what they can.

I do know that if there is a massive amount of gravel to clean up, only the key bits will be done especially if its tintops on circuit. The theory being (and i don't agree with it) that stones are less of a safety issue to tintops than they are single seaters. Time is always the factor in the end, its up to race control to decide and if we are already running behind then they just don't give us the time to do the quality of job we'd like to... :S

[Stephen Green]

I think we need to get away from the 'who's fault was it' and admit that in this instance the track wasn't swept to the standard we would normally meet. The reasons are varied (brooms, time, etc etc etc) but we would all agree that to see additional damage to competitirs cars is not what we want to see and lessons have obvously been learnt. If we can take away from this weekend a positive for future meetings then I would hope marshals and drivers alike will see the benefit.

[GORDON STREETER]

I had three screens broken in as many meetings years ago and then found I could use Lexan in the rules. It never breaks and is cheap if you know where to buy it at the right price. OK it will scratch with the wiper blades after a while, but you can afford to renew it every year.

[Al Weyman]

Use Rainex on it and forget the wipers unless it gets silly wet.

[archaic gold]

Slippery flag (Red/Yellow vertical stripes), means, as it says. Covers Oil, Coolant (anti-freeze), excess water, mud, slime, even snow! possible wet leaves! However, I would consider stones a Hazard requiring a Stationary Yellow for one lap, or until all Competitors have seen it! (IMHO)

[westfieldbend]

Brands hatch does have a circuit sweeper but i belive it is the clubs desision wether it is to be used throughout the meeting.

[The SpeCTator]

There is a bit of speculation in this thread so as I witnessed the incident first hand let me fill in the grey bits.
The Avenger came through Paddock slightly(!)too fast and dropped a near side wheel into the gravel at the foot of Paddock, he overcorrected and turned left at high speed only stopping against the tyre wall just as he was about to roll. The car was up on 2 wheels when it hit the tyres and came back down again. The car wqs completeely undamaged.After the race was halted he was towed to the edge of the circuit where he fired up the engine and drove diagonally across the circuit and proceeded all the way to Druids on the grass. He could not have done better IMO to minimise the gravel spillage from the car.
The marshalls swept up afeter him as he crossed the track and there was no gravel remaining there, a great job by the marshalls too.
However when the Avenger initially dropped the wheel into the gravel as he overcorrected a huge wave of gravel was shot into the dip of Paddock Bend and there it remained as the restart took place. As a group of spectators we all agreed the first few laps were going to be interesting as there was so much gravel on line. As the cars restarted you could hear the gravel hitting the following competitors for the first few laps.
I have no clue if the marshalls had insufficient time to clear up or if they just did not see it as they were working some way away where the car was being removed.

[Al Weyman]

Yep thats about how I see it and I was watching right in front of where it all took place, below is a couple of pictures of just one of the cars that were damaged, I lost count after thirty chips and all four headlights were out! This hapless driver had actually driven to the circuit and had to drive it home like that, fortunately he has windscreen insurance cover!