Toleman TG280 (and Lola T850 & T860)

[Chris Townsend]

Further to Dan et al seeking info on the Ralt thread
Here's what I have so far on Toleman's F2 cars

This is largely only 1981

TG280
01 1980? 1981 Carlo Rossi
02 1980: Henton 1981: Sewi Hopfer
03 1980? 1981 Spirit: Spare car early season
04 ?
05 1980? 1981: Jim Crawford

Unknown number
1980: Docking: Rothengatter; 1981: Docking: Spare car

1981: Chris Cramer

TG850
01 ?
02 Spirit: Kenneth Acheson
03:Spirit: stefan Johansson
04?
05: Guido Pardini
06 Freddy Schnarwiler

Any advance?

Chris

[Dan Rear]

Chris etc

I suspected this one might start soon ??

Without any research at all, I guesstimate there may have been 7 TG280s made in 80 - perhaps 5 for works team, 4 used as F2, the final one as a test bed for the Hart F1 engine. Plus 2 for Docking Spitzley (DS) in 1980. Chris, when you refer to Spirit, do you mean DS, as the Wickham/Coppuck Spirit team didn't start until the winter of 81-82.

Works ran Henton & Warwick, all year, DS ran Huub originally, Stohr joining later. I think Colombo's Sanremo late season 80 car was ex-works. Possibly one other driver in one of the DS cars late on, only guessing on this.

In 81, most of the TG280s were sold on, Cramer/Crawford/Hopfer etc, Lola built, perhaps another 6 T850s. One to Sanremo for Pardini (Colombo ket his TG280), one Schnarwiler, possibly 3 for DS, (Acheson + Johnanson). IIRC DS used a 'TG280B' at some point in 81, maybe an ex-works 80 car, perhaps an updated T850.

For 82, a variety of these cars were used again, some to US for CanAm. The DS cars were, I think, re-christened 'Toleman DS1s', for Tassin, Rossi.

Any more info, I stress this is 'off the top of head' stuff !!

[Jeremy Jackson]

Chris,

TG280/10 was underneath Jim McGaughays' Lancia 037 GT car, quoted as ex-Cramer. I think 09 was also used on the hills aswell (Peter Kaye / Godfrey Crompton?). I think 09 was in anAutosport advert at some point, I'll see what I can find

[David McKinney]

Godfrey Crompton reputedly had two ex-Henton TG280s on the hills in 1981. One was driven by Chris Cramer, and became the McGaughey Lancia GT, the other, said to by #5, was driven by Crompton himself and Peter Kaye - later Ray Rowan and Terry Clifford into the 1990s

[Bryan Miller]

I can just visualise Chris rubbing his hands in glee with all these different threads going solving all sorts of querys.

Toleman TG280, actually entered as TA 280 , HU-2 was with Peter Williamson at the Australian Grand Prix for Atlantics at Calder Park Victoria November 7th. 1982.

The car was on a new local Liston / Fisher tub following a fairly impressive accident earlier in the year at Oran Park.
However Williamson was at the 1981 Australian G.P. Nov.1981 , and whilst no. ch.no. recorded it is the same car.

Bryan.

[Dan Rear]

Bryan, the HU2 no implies the Willaimson car was a Lola buiolt one, rather than a 'real' TG280. I'd seen it described as a Toleman T860, is the FAt version of the 1981 T850 F2 car. Any more info on this one?

[Bryan Miller]

Dan.

What do you mean any more info.???
If I presume correctly , what happened to it.???
Sorry I should have advised that the car is still here, and has never left.
Paased to Ken Shirvington , who still retains 2003.
Have I answered your question.

Bryan.

[Dan Rear]

Bryan

Thanks for reply, what I meant was, do you know whether the car was built by Toleman or Lola, ie a T850/860 or a TG280. You said you thought the latter, but the chassis no implies a Lola car.

[Chris Townsend]

After a bit of gleeful hand-rubbing I thought I'd throw my bit in on the Williamson car - which seems to have been a T850 because it's described by NZ Motoring News in the Calder report for 1981 as being ex Rothengatter. But when in 1981 did Huub get his hands on a TG850? [I don't have F2 results to hand]

Chris

[Dan Rear]

Chris

Don't think Huub ever had a T850. In 1980 when he was at Docking Spitzley, he had a 'real' TG280, alongside Stohr. In 81, fro memory he had a private March 802, updated to 812.

So if the Wiiliamson car was ex-Huub, it can only have been a TG280. I still have it described somewhere (can't remember after this time!) as a T860. Does anyone have Lola records to tell us how many of these were ever made. Again from memory I recall rumours that Lee-Davey was looking at one for UK 81 Atlantic, which never happened.

So if none went to the US, its possible the Williamson car was the only one built, or if this isn't a Lola, that no proper T860s were made. I realise the difference twixt an F2 and FAt was minimal by then, but for the sake of accuracy...

[Jeremy Jackson]

Huub drove a TG280/T850 in a Japanese race in September 1981. Acheson drove one, may have been this one, at the next race in November

[Jeremy Jackson]

Having just looked at JAF's site, Rothengatter & Acheson used the same race number(26), but since my Japanese translating isn't too hot generally (OK, it's non-existent), not sure about entrant/type.

[RTH]

I own TG280/01 I bought it from Alberto Colombo in Milan in 1985 he was then doing 3000 with a pair of March 85B's and my car was painted silver doing over head shots for watch commercials on Italian TV . It was the car on the front cover of Autosport in Feb 1980 when Stephen South was pre-season testing at Goodwood ( He then took a Mclaren contract, crashed a Can-am car and lost his leg from the knee down ) So Henton & Warwick went on to finish 1/2 in the 80 F2 European Championship my car was the spare up to August sold to Colombo who drove it himself and rented it to a number of mostly Italian rent-a drivers, it was still doing F2 in the 83 season - so both the first and last Toleman to run in F2

[Dan Rear]

Richard

Fascinating, what do you, or intend to do, with it?? How was Colombo to deal with, I always rated him as a very good midfielder in F2 from 74-82-ish. Cars always very reliable, almost 'un-Italian like'. Is your car in good nick, I gues there are few places it can run these day competitively, ie not really BOSS material, too young for Historic F2. Is it in Toleman colours or SanRemo ?

As an aside do you know what South is up to these days, I'd read that he wants to put his racing career behind him completely, and is a little bitter about how it ended for him?

[RTH]

Colombo's race shop was a sectioned off part of the family factory which manufactured chrome wire wheels for mopeds - by the million ! We dealed through an interpreter who when asked what the last 5 mins gabble was all about " oh he said yes " So a bit difficult to say really but they all treated us very well and appeared charming. When we went to Monza something must have been lost in translation - they seemed to be under the misaprehension we were F1 "Talent Scouts" and fell all over us with hospitality.

We met the Benetton racing finance manager who asked us who they should sign for '86 - Berger or Patrese ? we both said Berger.

The car is original and perfect in BRG I've been waiting for a historic series for this era of cars - which has never turned up.

I think you summed up Stephen South's position perfectly

[Bryan Miller]

Hi.

I am fully out of my depth with these cars , however while trolling for Brabham info. I came up with Autosport Feb. 7-1980 , with a big feature on the new Toleman TG280 and advises 4 to be built , with one kept for development and testing.
Also the article advises an RT2 [ modified ] was used in 1979 ? to test the Pirelli tyres and other Toleman ideas.

Don't know if above is a help or not.
Bryan.

[RTH]

Bryan,

That is all quite correct.

[allenbrown]

From Motor Sport December 1980 pp1896,1897,1905,1906.

This table reproduced from p1906.

Chassis produced All TG280-Hart
C1: Original prototype and separately maintained test car. Sold to Alberto Colombo.
C2: Derek Warwick's race chassis, scheduled for sale end of 1980.
C3: Docking/Spitzely team, driven mainly by Huub Rothengatter of Holland.
C4: Most successful chassis for Euopean Champion Brian Henton.
C5: Team spare chassis, fully race prepared at each event.
C6: Docking/Spitzely for Italian Siegfrid Stohr, winner two championship races.
C7: Black, sold to Japanese private customer complete.
C8: Constructed for Ford Germany and Zakspeed to test suitability of 1.4 Zakspeed turbo BDA (developed from Capri German championship engine) and delivered to Harold Ertl.
C9: Turbo development chassis for works to accommodate Hart turbo motor.

The article notes that the works cars had completely revised suspension during the season but the Docking/Spitzely cars remained unchanged.

There's nothing helpful in the article about the RT2s.

Allen

[allenbrown]

So that seems to give us:

C1: Works 1980 - Colombo 1981 - Hinton 1985. Retained 2003.
C2: Works 1980 - Hopfer 1981 ...
C3: DS 1980 - DS spare 1981 ... ?Can-Am ...
C4: Works 1980 ...
C5: Works 1980 - Crawford 1981 - ?Crompton ... Rowan/Clifford ...
C6: DS 1980 ... ?Can-Am ...
C7: Japan 1980 ...
C8: Zakspeed/Ertl 1980 ...
C9: Works turbo test car 1980/81 - ?Crompton 1981 ...
C10?: Cramer 1981 ... McGaughay 1985 ...

Allen

[Dan Rear]

Allen, very interesting, especially the Zakspeed/Ertl car. So the works team had 4, DS 2, one to Japan, plus 2 'test' chassis. I wonder whether in the light of this article, there really was a no 10 car?

Jeremy's memory is pretty good, so perhaps the McGaughey Lancia was built on an ex-Cramer tub, built well after the other cars.

Didn't Jo Gartner also have a TG280 in 1981, I wonder which car ??

[Jeremy Jackson]

Dan,

Combined with my memory( and notes, but thanks for the compliment!) found this: http://www.homepages.hetnet.nl/~scor...ing.html#GT037

I think the car was advertised in Autosport after Cramer had finished with it, I'll try and find it, and see if it confirms the chassis

[allenbrown]

I was just reading the 1982 Can-Am review in OnTrack and noticed that the two Can-Am TG280s were run by Alan Docking in 1982. So that would appear to confirm where C3 and C6 went.

I also noticed Hopfer advertising his TG280 in OnTrack in late 1982 as being suitable for Can-Am.

Allen

[james_williams]

A number of TG280's competed in the British Sprint Championship in the late 80's early 90's. Terry Clifford had one, Richard Ayers??? another, Nigel ???? had another and won the championship with one. Sorry I'm a bit sketchy on this as I was ony 10-12 at the time. Perhaps someone knows where these cars went?

[Jeremy Jackson]

James,

Nigel Bigwood was the name you're looking for, and Richard Ames was your question mark.

However, I can't get you much further on which chassis these were.

[andy97]

Weren't some of the TG 280s/ 820's converted by Ray Rowan to Roman hill climb cars. "Race Car Wharehouse" appear to have a couple of "Tolemans" for sale.