Diesel versus petrol power

[The Badger]

Im not sure that i like the thought of diesel engines in sportscar racing . Not just the fact as said by Tom Kristensen , that above 2nd gear the driver cant hear the engine . But from a spectator point of view , what can we expect to hear .

Also the fact , Porsche has posponed their thoughts of entering LM P1 class cuz they believe they cant compete against a diesel . They obviously know what they are talking about .

Something needs to be done so manufacturers dont turn away from LM P1 because they cant compete against diesels . Some kind of formula should exist to bring the performance levels into line with each other , so they can go head to head .

Thoughts please .

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Something needs to be done so manufacturers dont turn away from LM P1 because they cant compete against diesels . Some kind of formula should exist to bring the performance levels into line with each other , so they can go head to head .

Thoughts please .

Well, the ACO designed the rules specifically so that Petrols couldn't compete with Diesel. So they probably don't think anything is wrong with these rules.

The ALMS's new IMSA Code suggests they "can" do exactly what you suggest. Will they?

[The Badger]

Figures that have been spoken about with respect to Le Mans , suggest that a diesel powered car can expect as much as 3 extra laps per stint as opposed to a petrol example . Im not really sure what that translates into on a shorter track , but I have a feeling that its a bit biased !

What were Le Mans thinking when they thought up this rule then ?!

[Splendid Cat]

[QUOTE=The Badger! What were Le Mans thinking when they thought up this rule then ?![/QUOTE]

Peugeot probably asked the ACO nicely

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by The Badger

.........Something needs to be done so manufacturers dont turn away from LM P1 because they cant compete against diesels ........

Surely the new regs are having the opposite effect, the manufacturers are actually returning to endurance racing. If the ACO can entice the manufacturers back with rules which currently offer a bias in favour of diesel engined cars, I'm all for it. Audi, Peugeot, possibly BMW. And I'm sure other manufacturers will be watching with interest.

We can't have it both ways. We have been crying out for more manufacturer involvement. Now we've got it, and it's not exactly in the way we had hoped..............

[Mal]

Once someone has won Le Mans with a diesel then the ACO will probably even up the rules.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Surely the new regs are having the opposite effect, the manufacturers are actually returning to endurance racing. If the ACO can entice the manufacturers back with rules which currently offer a bias in favour of diesel engined cars, I'm all for it. Audi, Peugeot, possibly BMW. And I'm sure other manufacturers will be watching with interest.

We can't have it both ways. We have been crying out for more manufacturer involvement. Now we've got it, and it's not exactly in the way we had hoped..............

I see what you mean about Audi , Peugeot and talk about a BMW return . But Porsche has ruled out a return cuz they reckon they cant compete against a diesel ..... in fact , they dont "even" have a diesel !!!

If Porsche feel this way , who else does ?

I appreciate that we cant have it both ways , but in other championships they bring cars closer with ballast or restrictor sizes . Some say that that is not fair either . The petrol engine should not be handicapped , after all , Le Mans has made a lot of profit off the petrol engine manufacturer over the years . To give the diesel an advantage so it can win is not in the spirit of the game .

As for giving diesel an advantage so they can win , and then possibily changing the rules for next year so as to bring them both into line would surley be a slightly empty victory ?

For me , half the enjoyment of Le Mans is the sound of the car and the glowing brakes too . Sadly we wont have either with the R10 .

[Dani Filth]

Originally Posted by The Badger

If Porsche feel this way , who else does ?

those who don't have a compact car in their range powered by a Diesel ..

[JAG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I see what you mean about Audi , Peugeot and talk about a BMW return . But Porsche has ruled out a return cuz they reckon they cant compete against a diesel ..... in fact , they dont "even" have a diesel !!!

If Porsche feel this way , who else does ?

I appreciate that we cant have it both ways , but in other championships they bring cars closer with ballast or restrictor sizes . Some say that that is not fair either . The petrol engine should not be handicapped , after all , Le Mans has made a lot of profit off the petrol engine manufacturer over the years . To give the diesel an advantage so it can win is not in the spirit of the game .

As for giving diesel an advantage so they can win , and then possibily changing the rules for next year so as to bring them both into line would surley be a slightly empty victory ?

For me , half the enjoyment of Le Mans is the sound of the car and the glowing brakes too . Sadly we wont have either with the R10 .

As has been said, once a diesel shows itself to be competitive, the rules will be evened up. Hell, in the near future petrol engines will be the ones asking for performance breaks.

I'm still not convinced the Audi R10 will be the quickest car out there. I certainly think the new Lola with the AER V8 will be quicker, if only because the R10 is reportedly over weight.

The R8 is famed for its reliabilty, I doubt the R10 will be so trouble free. Not only are they up against much stiffer competition, they are also developing unproven technology.

BTW, who says Porsche believe they cannot be competitive with a petrol P1? Maserati reportedly came to the opposite conclusion.

You should stop taking as fact the writings of 'experts' and come to your own conclusions.

Over the past 24 months 'experts' have spoken about the death of prototype racing, the rise of GT1, how Porsche would not return to protoype racing anytime soon, the 'laughable' suggestion that the R10 would be a diesel and finally how Peugeot and other French manufactuers would not return to Le Mans.

There are only a few 'experts' I take any real notice of.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JAG

As has been said, once a diesel shows itself to be competitive, the rules will be evened up. Hell, in the near future petrol engines will be the ones asking for performance breaks.

I'm still not convinced the Audi R10 will be the quickest car out there. I certainly think the new Lola with the AER V8 will be quicker, if only because the R10 is reportedly over weight.

The R8 is famed for its reliabilty, I doubt the R10 will be so trouble free. Not only are they up against much stiffer competition, they are also developing unproven technology.

BTW, who says Porsche believe they cannot be competitive with a petrol P1? Maserati reportedly came to the opposite conclusion.

You should stop taking as fact the writings of 'experts' and come to your own conclusions.

Over the past 24 months 'experts' have spoken about the death of prototype racing, the rise of GT1, how Porsche would not return to protoype racing anytime soon, the 'laughable' suggestion that the R10 would be a diesel and finally how Peugeot and other French manufactuers would not return to Le Mans.

There are only a few 'experts' I take any real notice of.

To even the rules after a diesel has won is a bit unfair !

I dont expect the R10 to be the quickest out there . It doesnt need to be when it gets 3 laps more to a tank of fuel ! What 'expert' are you quoteing when you say that the R10 is 'reportedly' overweight ?

The Audi diesel is reported to be on the test bench for almost 2 years now , and has been haveing a tank of "racing" diesel dilivered to the Audi plant for almost a year too . I do expect it to be very good indeed . Boring but good .

As far as I know ..... Porsche did a study and decided against diesel cuz they said that within the currant engine regs they couldnt build a competitive engine to match the diesel . Sorry , i cant remember where i read that .

I do draw my own conclusions . But i am also interested in hearing what others like me think about it . Is this what a forum is for or not ?

As for various rumours put out by various people . If there wasnt speculation on the forums , there probably would be a very small forum !!! I have heard rumours that are complete bull and others that are not . Make your own mind up . The silly season never goes away , and i enjoy hearing what other people think about rumours and related stuff .

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I do draw my own conclusions . But i am also interested in hearing what others like me think about it . Is this what a forum is for or not ?

As for various rumours put out by various people . If there wasnt speculation on the forums , there probably would be a very small forum !!! I have heard rumours that are complete bull and others that are not . Make your own mind up . The silly season never goes away , and i enjoy hearing what other people think about rumours and related stuff .

Agreed, you really can't beat a good rumour..........


I shall personally reserve judgement on whether or not I like diesel power at Le Mans until I've experienced it. I doubt the R10's soundtrack could be much tamer than the winner in 2003!

As for rule changes to even things up for the petrol powered LMP1's, I very much doubt the ACO will give them any significant help until Peugeot have had a stab at an overall. 2008 at the earliest unless the gulf between the R10's and the 'rest' is embarassingly wide this year. But I'd imagine Audi may not show the R10's full potential this year and do just enough to win (I know, I'm making a big presumption there). No point in raising the bar any higher than they need to..............