The Future of Motorsport and Sportscars Role in it.

[Mal]

There is a very interesting article on Sportscarpros which discusses the future of Motporsport and its potential role in the development of green technology. John Brooks, the author, feels that if the sportscar racing rulemakers embrace it porperly there is a real chance that sportscars can return to the days that racing becomes part of a manufacturers R & D budget rather than justs its marketing budget.

What then does the ACO/FIA and IMSA have to do to embrace this, how will it works and do you consider it a good thing?

http://www.sportscarpros.com/notes-f...le/default.htm

[Justin Moran]

I dunno about the rest of you but this says to me "Group C" A tried and tested fuel formula. Ok times have moved on and technology is what it will be, so it wont be the same slab sides and bubble cockpits but the arguments are there for an effiecient but quick race series, isnt this what "prototypes" are all about?

[Mal]

I think it needs a lot more depth than that. It is not just about fuel economy it is about encouraging and developing alternitve technology fuels and drive systems.

[AU N EGL]

IMSA has started with the E85 fuels, plus the encuragment of alternative forms or hybrid forms of power. F1 is also encouraging these new technologies as well.

and of course motorsports will play a big part of these new technological developments. No one wants to drive a little box at 50 kph just to save a few hundred dollars or the perception of saving the planet.

PPL want and demand vehicles with power and speed and size for safety.

OT
Over the weekend saw a Toyota Pries ( Hybrid) crushed by a pick up truck. Drive was OK but will be in the hospital a while. Also ticketed for running a red light.

[johntt]

Very good article, the way things are going sportscars is going to be the only viable form of motorsport if things don't change in Nascar and F1.

What I would do is get the world of motorsport together (FIA, NASCAR, SRO, ACO, GARRA, etc) and the oil companies and agree to run everything (by that i mean the transporters and planes as well as the cars) on Biogasoline/Biodiesel/Bioethanol/Biokerosene made from algae ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel#Fuels ).

[AstonGeoff]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

No one wants to drive a little box at 50 kph just to save a few hundred dollars or the perception of saving the planet.

PPL want and demand vehicles with power and speed and size for safety.

I disagree, just because we (the visitors to this forum) want powerful and fast cars, it doesn't hold true for a lot of people.
There are plenty of people who would love to save money on fuel, especially as it is £5 a gallon here. Many people only drive to work or the shops or are retired and just want a car for short journeys, and can't afford a large and fast and thirsty car. Families buying people carriers will probably look at safety first, then economy followed by performance.
So to say that "want and demand vehicles with power and speed and size for safety" is probably wrong for a large proportion of the car buying public! Or is the fact that the biggest selling car in the uk is usually a small'ish four door hatchback with a sub 2l 4 cylinder engine a fluke???

[Mal]

Originally Posted by AstonGeoff

Or is the fact that the biggest selling car in the uk is usually a small'ish four door hatchback with a sub 2l 4 cylinder engine a fluke???

No because for many years the Toyota Corrolla was the biggest selling car in the world.

Geoff, you are right and this is why Motorsport needs to embrace new technology and be seen to the majority as a way of speeding up the development of 'green technology'. Otherwise the long term future could be limited.

I only heard this morning that Green lobbyist are pushing for all vehicles that do less that 35mpg to be banned. This sort of law is very likely in the cities at least. Either that or their will be huge taxes on their use - such as the one that was introduced today in London which charges all trucks that do not have low emmision engine £200 per day for entering anywhere in the greater london area.

Therefore in order for people to be able to continue to enjoy fast cars new technology will be needed so that they are excempt from such laws and taxes.

This is where motorsport and in particular, endurance racing can take the lead.

[gucom]

Originally Posted by johntt

What I would do is get the world of motorsport together (FIA, NASCAR, SRO, ACO, GARRA, etc) and the oil companies and agree to run everything (by that i mean the transporters and planes as well as the cars) on Biogasoline/Biodiesel/Bioethanol/Biokerosene made from algae ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel#Fuels ).

Now that's a good idea algae seem to be the only viable way forward that's been presented so far...

[AU N EGL]

That is where it comes down to locations and mode of travel, distance traveled per trip and government taxes on fuel.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by AstonGeoff

Families buying people carriers will probably look at safety first, then economy followed by performance.
So to say that "want and demand vehicles with power and speed and size for safety" is probably wrong for a large proportion of the car buying public! Or is the fact that the biggest selling car in the uk is usually a small'ish four door hatchback with a sub 2l 4 cylinder engine a fluke???

May want too look at the UK Insurance statistics of crashes on small cars and saftey. PPL dont like little cars for safety or as ppl haulers.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by gucom

Now that's a good idea algae seem to be the only viable way forward that's been presented so far...

The problem lies in politics - if the fuel is clean from an environmental perspective then our government can't tax it so much, and the environmental movement will lose a lot of sway and membership (and thus susbscription fees) if the bulk of the problem (i.e. transport) gets solved.

As a result, the environemntal movement is pushing a lot od misinformation about biofuels, claiming that all of them affect food supplies/cause deforestation etc. This is only true of the 1st generation corn ethanol that reduces CO2 by ~18%.

The second generationm method of using various types of waste and non-food sources (which the ALMS will be using this year) best shown by Coskata (who are working with GM) http://www.coskata.com/ which solves a lot of the associated problems with an 84% CO2 reduction.

However, there are doubts as to whether this can produce enough to satisfy demand, hence algae. Also wth alage you can make biogas to replace natural gas, and you can make bioplastics (which, surprise, surprise aere biodegradable).

Another thing: ethanol is only good for racing cars, for road cars biogasoline is a far better option as you get better mileage and you don't have to spend time, money and energy on converting a petrol car to run on it. Diesel cars can run biodiesel with virtually no modification.

[zac510]

I guess you have to consider that the ACO/IMSA is still a business and a radical knee-jerk reaction to jump on the ecological bandwagon could ruin sportscars entirely.
To us enthusiasts sportscars already has a strong reputation for allowing a few hybrids, diesel/E85, different engine types even just in the last decade. If the governing bodies continue to move in this direction then sportscars will continue to lead in this field. We just need to be a little bit patient and give them 4-5 years to open up the rules bit by bit to innovation while not alienating the privateers and manufacturers that are the foundation of the sport.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

May want too look at the UK Insurance statistics of crashes on small cars and saftey. PPL dont like little cars for safety or as ppl haulers.

That may be true for the US, but not for Europe, over here small cars like VW Golf, Focus or an Astra get the same Five-star top ratings in the NCAP crash tests as much bigger cars. Even people that own a big sedan, usually tend to have another small family car for the daily commute.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Mal

I only heard this morning that Green lobbyist are pushing for all vehicles that do less that 35mpg to be banned. This sort of law is very likely in the cities at least. Either that or their will be huge taxes on their use - such as the one that was introduced today in London which charges all trucks that do not have low emmision engine £200 per day for entering anywhere in the greater london area.

Therefore in order for people to be able to continue to enjoy fast cars new technology will be needed so that they are excempt from such laws and taxes.

This is where motorsport and in particular, endurance racing can take the lead.

Mal; The guy saying this on my TV at lunch time was an ex Chairman of Shell so I do not know what to make of it.

We had a good run with a similar thread here last year and in general contributors were "agin it" but I do still think that we must be seen to set an example and whilst we have started in ALMS and with the Energy Efficient programme there is more could be done I am sure. I remember fuel efficiency classes at Le Mans in my youth, DB Panhard I seem to recall putting out some very sleek little cars and now we have the big diesels but they cannot take full advantage of the technology because we need them to make a race of it against the petrol engines so we artificially govern LMP1

Why not, as mentioned in the article from comments by Murray and Illien, set a fuel quantity for one of the classes? I am sure it could be based on a formula that effectively used Barrels of Crude equivalent?

[Nordic]

Regardless of what most people on what must be considered a 'pro Motorsport' forum want, there will come a time when the Green lobby turn their spotlight on racing.

We can debate until we are blue in the face on this forum the fact that more polloution/Co2 comes from 10's of thousands of football fans traveling around the globe, but at the end of the day motorsport will become an easy target and targets will be set.

It will be very hard to take motorsport 'underground' and off the radar so to speak ,as so much income is dependent of sponsorship, which itself will be threatened by association in some quaters.

The only way forward will be to embrace new fuels and encourage there growth.

I am sure Bob R will be quick to point out his take on the Greens, but even his bellowing voice will become drowned out at some point.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That may be true for the US, but not for Europe, over here small cars like VW Golf, Focus or an Astra get the same Five-star top ratings in the NCAP crash tests as much bigger cars. Even people that own a big sedan, usually tend to have another small family car for the daily commute.

as I mentioned the UK Stats. OK /OT

Motor sports will test the manufatures abilties to make new vehicals, which is a good thing

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Nordic

Regardless of what most people on what must be considered a 'pro Motorsport' forum want, there will come a time when the Green lobby turn their spotlight on racing.

We can debate until we are blue in the face on this forum the fact that more polloution/Co2 comes from 10's of thousands of football fans traveling around the globe, but at the end of the day motorsport will become an easy target and targets will be set.

It will be very hard to take motorsport 'underground' and off the radar so to speak ,as so much income is dependent of sponsorship, which itself will be threatened by association in some quaters.

The only way forward will be to embrace new fuels and encourage there growth.

I am sure Bob R will be quick to point out his take on the Greens, but even his bellowing voice will become drowned out at some point.

It won't be my voice that bursts the greenie bubble, it will be simple economics that shoves the greenie worm back into the hole that it crawled out of.
The leaks in the ethanol bubble are just the start of reality being shoved back into the faces of the politicians who are using, sky is falling tactics, on horrendously ignorant huddled masses, to make bs seem like fudge.
When the green scam starts burning large holes in voters pocket books, the house of cards will fall.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

When the green scam starts burning large holes in voters pocket books, the house of cards will fall.

Ding Ding we have a winner . . .

I agree with Bob

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That may be true for the US, but not for Europe, over here small cars like VW Golf, Focus or an Astra get the same Five-star top ratings in the NCAP crash tests as much bigger cars. Even people that own a big sedan, usually tend to have another small family car for the daily commute.

Hope your Astra doesn't get hit by a Cayenne.

[SebringMG]

Mass does come into it in the end and a fat bloated SUV will tend to destroy a "small" family hatchback even though they both have the same 5 star rating.

But people saying the current Astra is small should take a look at the Mk1 version that was small....the current Astra is as big as family/executive saloons used to be....

[zac510]

That's a nice sentiment TWK.

[old man]

Nordic is quite right and as I have said before, better to set an example than be made into one. Motor emissions are being seen as guilty until somene proves otherwise and it does not matter how strongly the anti-green lobby shout and cuss Bob, we could quickly find ourselves in a bind.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

When the green scam starts burning large holes in voters pocket books, the house of cards will fall.

It is already hurting us in the pocket, higher fuel costs to drive and heat our homes plus extra taxes on using the roads.

The reaction of the man on the street when faced with these increased costs will not be to 'go on strike or take up arms' it will be to point the finger at areas of percived waste, motorsport will fall into that.

We need to face facts, the green lobby is only going to get stronger as more blame is put onto greenhouse gasses and the supposed link to climate warming. Bob may well be right, the current ideas put forward to slow the emmisions and provide alternative 'cleaner' fuels may cause more questions, but that does not mean we should stop looking for other possible answers.

Motorsport should be at the forefront of that reseach.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Nordic

It is already hurting us in the pocket, higher fuel costs to drive and heat our homes plus extra taxes on using the roads.

High Taxes causes more Revolutions in Western countries then any other cause.

Time to start questioning your elected officials.

When fuel prices hit a certain point in the US, elected officials get more emails and complaints then any other time. Guess what happens? Fuel prices come down.

Yes Motorsports is in the forefront of technology, but dont sit back, be proactive with your elected officials. Tell them to get off their duffs, lower taxes or get booted out of office.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Nordic

We need to face facts, the green lobby is only going to get stronger as more blame is put onto greenhouse gasses and the supposed link to climate warming.

Climate warming / Global warming is such a joke and Chicken Little mentality.

China one of the largest contributors to greenhouse gasses is having the COLDEST WINTER in 100 years.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080204/...ina_weather_dc