Crashgate the sequel. 2022 edition.

[steve_r]

Video here, in case anyone like me had forgotten about this:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/v...016167018.html

This seems to have provoked some tension between the RBR drivers, culminating in Verstappens refusal to let Perez back through in Brazil. Verstappen getting criticism for what on the face of it is some pretty unreasonable actions. It seems surprising that this has not manifested itself until now.

“We discuss these things internally,” Horner told Sky. “The drivers have spoken about it. They are very clear.

“I won’t go into what we discussed behind closed doors. The drivers have shaken hands.

“We work as a team, we race as a team. Our priority is to get Checo to be runner-up in the championship. Max has given us that commitment. If Max can help, he will do.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/101715...liberate-crash

Not good enough for me.

I have always been a Perez fan, but if he has crashed deliberatly, then the fact that the RBR drivers have shaken hands is not the end of it. The fact that RBR will not go into what was dicussed privately is not good enough. This needs properly investigating, and I'm afraid penalties need to be applied if there is a deliberate act.

I dont like penalties for minor clashes and racing incidents, but this is supposedly a calculated and deliberate crash, so severe penalties need to be introduced, and what RBR want to keep nice and private should be out in the open.

[BTCC frog]

Obviously I thought nothing of it at the time because there seemed no reason to suspect it was deliberate. He was only compromising Verstappen, and would accept starting behind both Ferraris, so the motive was missing. But rewatching the crash, he does appear to give a lot of throttle and then make no attempt to correct the slide. I suppose he was just annoyed about having to let Verstappen past in Spain, if this is true, of course.

[crmalcolm]

At the moment - I am reading lots of speculation that the Monaco incident is the cause of the friction between the drivers. And that it is this incident that Verstappen refers to when he says "I also gave my reasons why I didn't do it, about something that happened in the past"

It might be - but when you move on from the outwards immediate consequences of what happened this weekend, you also realise there is a question here of 'how did the matters that were discussed behind closed doors reach the press'?

The source seems to be coming from Dutch media - De Telegraaf report 'report, Perez later confessed to team principal Christian Horner and consultant Helmut Marko that he crashed on purpose to cause a red flag. Verstappen “had not forgotten”.'

If the internal leak is to the Dutch media, then there is a certain element of the team that would immediately come under suspicion surely?

It's an interesting position for a team that recently stated [regarding the budget cap] “Obviously, any form of leakage is hugely worrying. It’s something we expect to be followed up.” and from a parent company who 'fired two top executives in its North American segment' after a leak to the press.

Will they take the same stance with the source of this leak?

[S griffin]

If that was deliberate that is not good. I can understand a team mate being more aggressive with his team mate's main rival in a race, but to do this in a qualifying session is something else. Like Steve I hate seeing penalties for fairly innocuous contact and just plain racing incidents, so they need to hammer them for deliberate crashes like this

I had forgotten about what happened in Spain, but now I have even more sympathy for Perez after what happened yesterday, but not for this incident. We'll see if these allegations are true

[Teretonga]

I have read somewhere that the Monaco incident was raised in public via a blog by Max's father Jos, alleging that Perez benefitted from it because he got a contract extension not long after.

If it is true, that Max's father Jos was the public source, then I'm not so impressed about the validity of the whole thing at all, and to be carrying this bitterness on 18 months after the incident and not respecting the team policy and requests seems immature/childish. Time to grow up.

[Aysedasi]

I don't think there's any championship 'tarnishing' here. It just makes Max look a bit of a ********. But as that's an attribute that he shares with the team management, I suppose it's only right that he should display the 'quality' from time to time....

[crmalcolm]

From ESPN:

[S griffin]

Yes it seems this source is questionable, so I will remain suspicious of how true this is. It’s typical Jos he has to help find a way to protect Max at all costs, no matter how much he hurts the other guy

[Skam85]

yeah I don't buy it at all. Why would Perez crash on purpose to secure *checks notes* ...3rd on the grid in Monaco behind both Ferraris?

[TrapezeArtist]

I just watched the video and I don’t see anything but an honest mistake when trying to maximise grid position for the most notorious “can’t overtake” race of the year.

[bathurst77]

A lot of people are slamming Max for not letting Checo through, but seriously.

Crashing to change results in youre or youre teams favour should be treated as blatant cheating. The driver disqualified from that race, a serious penalty point hit, and investigation of who within the team knew it was on the cards.

He cost Max Monaco win, now Max has cost him some points..... I think thats only retribution.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

A lot of people are slamming Max for not letting Checo through, but seriously.

Crashing to change results in youre or youre teams favour should be treated as blatant cheating. The driver disqualified from that race, a serious penalty point hit, and investigation of who within the team knew it was on the cards.

He cost Max Monaco win, now Max has cost him some points..... I think thats only retribution.

I have a bridge to sell you

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

A lot of people are slamming Max for not letting Checo through, but seriously.

Crashing to change results in youre or youre teams favour should be treated as blatant cheating. The driver disqualified from that race, a serious penalty point hit, and investigation of who within the team knew it was on the cards.

He cost Max Monaco win, now Max has cost him some points..... I think thats only retribution.

That makes Max's deliberate disobeying of a clear team order acceptable?

[PhilipR]

This makes no sense. Why would Per crash on purpose to protect 3rd place in Monaco of all places. He could not have guessed Ferrari to mess up all strategy and for him to win.
And if on purpose(should definitely be looked into and penalised if true) why would you admit it to your team? - even if telemetry looks dodgy you can claim it was an honest mistake

Also why would Ver carry 6 months and 10+ wins later such grudge - all Summer and Autumn he was praising Perez and what help he provided
Also showing how you feel over a 6th place? Made more sense for Ver to do that for more important positions or situations.

To me it sounds like baseless accusations to give reason to Ver's behaviour. I have no issue with him not giving place back, but he should also expect not to receive such support from Per in the future either.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

This makes no sense. Why would Per crash on purpose to protect 3rd place in Monaco of all places. He could not have guessed Ferrari to mess up all strategy and for him to win.

While there are a lot of valid points to consider in the rest of your post - just to answer this query - 'Perez's crash on his last flying lap in qualifying meant the Red Bull driver qualified ahead of Verstappen. As a result, the Mexican got the preference in every strategic call.'

At Monaco - getting the strategic preference can be a massive advantage.

[Aysedasi]

Yeah, but harbouring a grudge against your teammate for that long? When the teammate has more than made up for any 'issue'. No, that was Max being bloody minded, thinking that he was showing his strength. RBR now know that Max is not prepared to give up anything if he will suffer any kind of a loss as a result.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

I have no issue with him not giving place back, but he should also expect not to receive such support from Per in the future either.

I might agree with this view - but:

Ver has already received a lot of support from Per in the past (enough to make the difference in WDC contest some would argue). So why not repay that when there is nothing to lose for yourself?

If Ver had ceded to Per at Brazil, he would have built the trusting relationship between drivers, and would be more likely to get future assistance that might prove crucial in another WDC battle. As it is - he can not expect any support from Per in the future, which might cost him a lot more than a 6th place in a dead rubber for the WDC.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

He could not have guessed Ferrari to mess up all strategy and for him to win.

You do realise this is the Italian/French-led Ferrari?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I have read somewhere that the Monaco incident was raised in public via a blog by Max's father Jos, alleging that Perez benefitted from it because he got a contract extension not long after.

If it is true, that Max's father Jos was the public source, then I'm not so impressed about the validity of the whole thing at all, and to be carrying this bitterness on 18 months after the incident and not respecting the team policy and requests seems immature/childish. Time to grow up.

Having now read the blog - there are some interesting phrases used by Jos:

'Max's third place was very disappointing. We all saw that it was a difficult weekend for him. It starts with the car, which simply doesn't have the characteristics for his driving style yet.' (Red Bull's fault)

'Red Bull achieved a good result, but at the same time exerted little influence to help Max to the front. That he finished third, he owes to Ferrari's mistake at that second stop of Charles Leclerc. The championship leader, Max, was not helped in that sense by the chosen strategy. It turned completely to Checo's favour. That was disappointing to me, and I would have liked it to be different for the championship leader.' (Red Bull's fault)

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I might agree with this view - but:

Ver has already received a lot of support from Per in the past (enough to make the difference in WDC contest some would argue). So why not repay that when there is nothing to lose for yourself?

If Ver had ceded to Per at Brazil, he would have built the trusting relationship between drivers, and would be more likely to get future assistance that might prove crucial in another WDC battle. As it is - he can not expect any support from Per in the future, which might cost him a lot more than a 6th place in a dead rubber for the WDC.

I totally agree with you. it was short sighted from Ver on this. A small gesture could lead to a lot more benefits in the future. What I mean to say by that is, he made his bed and he will have to lie in it - just no moaning if he is not helped again by Per

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Having now read the blog - there are some interesting phrases used by Jos:

'Max's third place was very disappointing. We all saw that it was a difficult weekend for him. It starts with the car, which simply doesn't have the characteristics for his driving style yet.' (Red Bull's fault)

'Red Bull achieved a good result, but at the same time exerted little influence to help Max to the front. That he finished third, he owes to Ferrari's mistake at that second stop of Charles Leclerc. The championship leader, Max, was not helped in that sense by the chosen strategy. It turned completely to Checo's favour. That was disappointing to me, and I would have liked it to be different for the championship leader.' (Red Bull's fault)

Seems there is an expectation that the team works for Ver whatever happens - and I heard somewhere that Ver was raised by Jos with a mentality that if someone beats him or is faster, they had faster/better equipment - which seems to place blame on others rather than on him - and Jos comments seem to point to such attitude.

I guess it can develop a strong mindset and great confidence in Ver's skills which make him such a great driver- the issue is if he can see that sometimes rather than the equipment, he is the one lacking and if he will be able to self improve.

Also this way of raising someone, might make them a great driver - but what kind of human being? Yes you can be mega successful but racing will only be a small part of his life. A lot will come afterwards and all the success will mean very little later on

Ok I digress - I went into psychologically analysing a person I do not know using very limited information so take it as a curiosity more than anything. At the end of the day he is a race car driver and he is delivering on that front. Everything else is for him to deal with

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Seems there is an expectation that the team works for Ver whatever happens - and I heard somewhere that Ver was raised by Jos with a mentality that if someone beats him or is faster, they had faster/better equipment - which seems to place blame on others rather than on him - and Jos comments seem to point to such attitude.

I guess it can develop a strong mindset and great confidence in Ver's skills which make him such a great driver- the issue is if he can see that sometimes rather than the equipment, he is the one lacking and if he will be able to self improve.

Also this way of raising someone, might make them a great driver - but what kind of human being? Yes you can be mega successful but racing will only be a small part of his life. A lot will come afterwards and all the success will mean very little later on

Ok I digress - I went into psychologically analysing a person I do not know using very limited information so take it as a curiosity more than anything. At the end of the day he is a race car driver and he is delivering on that front. Everything else is for him to deal with

The part I found particularly interesting was the 'the car, which simply doesn't have the characteristics for his driving style yet'

There seems to be little acceptance that the driver has to adapt to the car (on occasion).