The future of Mazda

[mazda1]

We can all see that the effort of Mazda in the ALMS with the car they have is over. We know that the AER engine has to go to P1 next year and If they can't fight with the Honda or a 3 year old Porsche this year, then how can they even dream of bringing the fight to Audi and Peugeot next year? We all saw that Lola didn't put the AER "Mazda want to be" engine as an option for next years LMP2 car and I dont see why Mazda should continue with that joke. I can't understand why Mazda Corp lets Mazda North America race a car that has never done anything but brake down. If Mazda wants to do something serious in the ALMS they have to get involve, not just let Mazda North America continue to embarrass the brand with that car. A rotary engine from Japan, gas or nitrogen, a serious team with 2 serious drivers, not just the owners son, at least some input in their chassis like Aston did and simply their involvement is the only way they will be taken as a serious thread, but we know that's not going to happen, so the future is not looking very good.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by mazda1

We can all see that the effort of Mazda in the ALMS with the car they have is over. We know that the AER engine has to go to P1 next year and If they can't fight with the Honda or a 3 year old Porsche this year, then how can they even dream of bringing the fight to Audi and Peugeot next year? We all saw that Lola didn't put the AER "Mazda want to be" engine as an option for next years LMP2 car and I dont see why Mazda should continue with that joke. I can't understand why Mazda Corp lets Mazda North America race a car that has never done anything but brake down. If Mazda wants to do something serious in the ALMS they have to get involve, not just let Mazda North America continue to embarrass the brand with that car. A rotary engine from Japan, gas or nitrogen, a serious team with 2 serious drivers, not just the owners son, at least some input in their chassis like Aston did and simply their involvement is the only way they will be taken as a serious thread, but we know that's not going to happen, so the future is not looking very good.

Here we go with the Rotary Purist... You will never, ever see a Rotary again unless its running on something other than that burns clean. Also since Mazda is the only one with a Rotary, ummm ACO rather not write rules just for them.

I agree there is disappointment all around for AER and Dyson. But as far as I know the program will continue. I agree Mazda should increase its investment, it makes no sense to have just one car to gather data with when Acura/HPD had four at one point.

More investment is needed, not a wholesale change. Dyson is fairly competent but there likely needs some change in that team as well.

[knighty]

In terms of outright pace the package is fast at times and capable of winning races, but the mazda motor does tend to have the reliability of an old skoda from the 1980's........jokes aside, AER are currently advertisind for design engineers and senior design engineers.......I suspect something new may be in the pipeline, god knows what, I will keep my ear to the ground!!!

[Japanese Samurai]

Mazda is recognized an enterprise very passive to the motor sports activity in Japan.
Super GT is the most popular category in Japan, and Team Amemiya RX-7 is very popular team.
However, Mazda is hardly supported to Team Amemiya.
Even the Mazda emblem had not placed to the machine several years ago. Judging from we Japanese, it can be thought that neither United States Mazda nor Japan Mazda are another companies.

[Félix]

Just imagine how little would be needed to make Dyson Racing a two-car team with reliable and tested equipment. We're talking about a budget several times smaller than Audi-Peugeot and still smaller than what Acura put behind their prototype racing bid in the last few years. And I'm sure that would get them the ALMS championship, beating the dated RS Spyder and HPD that are run on minuscule budgets.

What a waste; and it's pretty much been that way since Mazda entered LMP2! (I understand that part of the current situation is because their main sponsor is BP and it must have cut budgets for testing and "a second car from Laguna Seca", but it's painful to look at the waste that's going on and at where it could lead Dyson Racing for next year)

[knighty]

just putting 2 and 2 together......perhaps I'm getting 5!......perhaps Mazda are gearing up for an entry to IRL????

[picchiofan]

Go to MazdaNA and Mazdaspeed's websites. The only mention of an ALMS program is the BK motorsports open topped LMP2 car with rotary from a few years back. The Dyson joke of a program doesn't even warrant mention.

Mazda's real North American program right now is in GA with the class dominating 3 rotor RX8s.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

The Dyson joke of a program doesn't even warrant mention.

The only joke in the Dyson/Mazda equation is Mazda. Zoom Zoom my arse.

DK

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Here we go with the Rotary Purist... You will never, ever see a Rotary again unless its running on something other than that burns clean. Also since Mazda is the only one with a Rotary, ummm ACO rather not write rules just for them.

I agree completely, however, it seems they were willing to write rules that benefit only two manufacturers...

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by dxk1

The only joke in the Dyson/Mazda equation is Mazda. Zoom Zoom my arse.

DK

How so?

Ever since Pat Smith left, that team has been lost. They change cars every few years and just get slower and less reliable. They didn't do anything with the LMP1 spec lola, switched to the class dominating Porsche LMP cars, "Dysonized" them and went straight to the back of the pack, ditched those and picked up the BK motorsports cars and have been embarassing. BK wasn't quick, but the cars at least finished races. Dyson has managed to go slower and be less reliable. They mucked around with the Porsches and ditched those, only to see a glorified part time pro-am team like Pickett's pick up the car and be a front runner.

It's not the equipment.

[dj choc ice]

To be perfectly honest the whole Mazda ALMS operation has been a bit of a bad joke from the start, it's never rendered any real results and I don't seem to recall a class win for Mazda bar one or two last year. No wonder Mazda have kept things on the quiet about the ALMS operation, if anything it's only served to embarrass them and make them look bad.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Félix

Just imagine how little would be needed to make Dyson Racing a two-car team with reliable and tested equipment. We're talking about a budget several times smaller than Audi-Peugeot and still smaller than what Acura put behind their prototype racing bid in the last few years. And I'm sure that would get them the ALMS championship, beating the dated RS Spyder and HPD that are run on minuscule budgets.

What a waste; and it's pretty much been that way since Mazda entered LMP2! (I understand that part of the current situation is because their main sponsor is BP and it must have cut budgets for testing and "a second car from Laguna Seca", but it's painful to look at the waste that's going on and at where it could lead Dyson Racing for next year)

While this would be great, we don't know what Dyson's budget from Mazda is. I think it is also worth noting how small a company (comparitively) Mazda is.

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Go to MazdaNA and Mazdaspeed's websites. The only mention of an ALMS program is the BK motorsports open topped LMP2 car with rotary from a few years back. The Dyson joke of a program doesn't even warrant mention.

Mazda's real North American program right now is in GA with the class dominating 3 rotor RX8s.

I spy a B09/86 on the front page of the Mazda Motorsports page:

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...eedMotorsports

You may be right that the GA program could be their main emphasis, but should it be? GA isn't exactly having to turn people away at the gates and the '11 model year is rumored to be the last for the RX8. In my mind the sleek proto captures more attention and gives you the ability to promote your entire line up. That is if they can get AER in line.

Originally Posted by dxk1

The only joke in the Dyson/Mazda equation is Mazda. Zoom Zoom my arse.

DK

Yep. Since Dyson has been using AER engines it has been like this! That is with exception to the twin turbo V8. Some friends and I used to have a pool to pick the closest lap the 16 & 20 would blow up. And they always would in spectacular fashion. That went away for awhile when they switched to the V8 and then the Porsche, but now they're back with a little AER granade. They've got to sort it out, it's been 10 years!

[KSR88]

Originally Posted by dxk1

The only joke in the Dyson/Mazda equation is Mazda. Zoom Zoom my arse.

DK

Hmmm--since James Weaver retired they have been several notches worse.
I think they are the only team that had issues with the Porsche Spyder. Some of it may been Penske-but they could have kept on post-Penske. They made some bad choices.
Their old car has been on the podium in every race on Pickett's team with a semi-amateur or older driver (however you choose to describe Pickett) and a pro.
It is endurance racing. Rule number 1 is to start with a machine that can do the duty cycle.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by KSR88

Hmmm--since James Weaver retired they have been several notches worse.
I think they are the only team that had issues with the Porsche Spyder. Some of it may been Penske-but they could have kept on post-Penske. They made some bad choices.
Their old car has been on the podium in every race on Pickett's team with a semi-amateur or older driver (however you choose to describe Pickett) and a pro.
It is endurance racing. Rule number 1 is to start with a machine that can do the duty cycle.

I don't think that is a fair comparison. No one was on the same level as Penske and the Spyder program was really expensive. Dyson went with a more affordable route. What I see is a quick car being taken out of contention by engine reliability issues... something that is out of their hands.

[Jonerz]

Mazda does motorsports on the cheap, they don't have the cash to throw at a prototype program the way Honda/Acura, Peugeot, or Audi/Porsche/VW do.

Their Grand-Am program is a roaring success because they provided engine blocks bodywork and the limited amount of money is effective in the low(er) cost Grand-Am GT class. They tried to swim with the big fish and the P07 is an incredible motor but overstressed and while AER is perfectly capable at making the motor work, Mazda isn't putting the money in.

The words "put up or shut up" come to mind when thinking of Mazda's involvement in Prototype racing, but the other way you can look at it is they were there in 2005 and they remain in the series in 2010. Sure they aren't throwing advertising budget at the ALMS nor R&D budget at the AER motor but as has been mentioned in this thread, they are a small company that supports racing but have to do it on the cheap often.

... It would be nice if they could send (better) corporate partners to support Dyson ...

Chris

[6157]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Also since Mazda is the only one with a Rotary, ummm ACO rather not write rules just for them.

Why not? They wrote rules for Audi, then they wrote rules for Peugeot, now apparently they're writing hybrid rules for Porsche and Toyota.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by 6157

Why not? They wrote rules for Audi, then they wrote rules for Peugeot, now apparently they're writing hybrid rules for Porsche and Toyota.

As Paul Truswell said in a Le Mans commentary (I think it was '07, someone please correct me if I'm wrong), if you want to run something at Le Mans that isn't in the rulebook, you go to the ACO, explain what you're planning to run, and they'll write the regulations to fit what you plan to do if those regulations do not exist.

[hcl123]

"More" investment by Mazda, may very well pass by a new rotary engine again, targeted at Le mans. They did a come back once with it, and won. Perhaps they were lucky, but i never understood why they did abandoned the project so soon... winning lemans got them more free publicity that most other involvement... something that Pescarolo(team) among others as example, tried very hard without ever achieving.

Perhaps a "diesel" rotary engine next year could surprise most... and win!!... or perhaps gasoline-hybride... don't know...

Rotary engines were(2010) allowed conform rules...
http://www.lemans-series.com/fr/s02_...ment_proto.pdf

But there is a gap between "gasoline engines" that mention "rotary" in gasoline air restrictors, and diesel that don't mention it ?... i can't see why a rotary diesel will be forbidden.

I mention "diesel" because its OBVIOUS that that is the tech to beat, if i own a team i would play to win... not any religious sentiment against or in favor... only play to win.

And this is the most pervasive argument... here we can flame each other out of ours preferences and differences of opinion, but large money investments in motorsport can only be justified by wining... if is more of the same, and because of that there is not much perspectives... then why bother. And winning something big is what is missing to Mazda.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I agree completely, however, it seems they were willing to write rules that benefit only two manufacturers...

Who in turn invest a tremendous amount in the ACO. Audi has spent much money on the ALMS and ACO/LMS. Both Peugeot and Audi have invest much money in the series.

Mazda has always been meek on its motorsport investment as I said in another thread. I would love to grill Jon Doonan because as I said, they have invested a fair amount in Star Mazda, Atlantics and Grand Am GT. Currently the RX8's are no longer competitive in Grand Am Cup, the few that are left are being run in NASA Club events and World Challenge GTS.

Who knows if because of the lost of Atlantics that they will invest more money into the program. I think AER might be working on a Mazda badged engine for Indy Car based on the MZR-R but more on the previous B07 turbo engine.

Currently Mazda are supporting -

Grand Am GT
Grand Am Cup (Mazdaspeed 3, MX-5)
ALMS LMP
Star Mazda
Playboy MX-5 Cup (SCCA Pro)
SCCA World Challenge (Tri-Point Engineering)

All these things are using some form of a production platform or engine.

It seems they'll return in 2011 with a full program, that's the rumor from the paddock. I hope the reliability issues will be solved in the off-season, I don't think we've seen the last of them.

They'll need it because I expect Highcroft's LMP1 to be fully sorted out by Wheels Down.

[6157]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Who in turn invest a tremendous amount in the ACO. Audi has spent much money on the ALMS and ACO/LMS. Both Peugeot and Audi have invest much money in the series.

What exactly has Peugeot invested in the ALMS? And I don't see very much web advertising from Peugeot for the LMS either.

Originally Posted by dj4monie

They'll need it because I expect Highcroft's LMP1 to be fully sorted out by Wheels Down.

The LMP 1 that hasn't even been announced yet.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Who in turn invest a tremendous amount in the ACO. Audi has spent much money on the ALMS and ACO/LMS. Both Peugeot and Audi have invest much money in the series.

I agree with this statement. I don't think it's right for some manufacturers to "buy" race wins, but it happens.

Mazda has always been meek on its motorsport investment as I said in another thread. I would love to grill Jon Doonan because as I said, they have invested a fair amount in Star Mazda, Atlantics and Grand Am GT. Currently the RX8's are no longer competitive in Grand Am Cup, the few that are left are being run in NASA Club events and World Challenge GTS.

Who knows if because of the lost of Atlantics that they will invest more money into the program. I think AER might be working on a Mazda badged engine for Indy Car based on the MZR-R but more on the previous B07 turbo engine.

Currently Mazda are supporting -

Grand Am GT
Grand Am Cup (Mazdaspeed 3, MX-5)
ALMS LMP
Star Mazda
Playboy MX-5 Cup (SCCA Pro)
SCCA World Challenge (Tri-Point Engineering)

All these things are using some form of a production platform or engine.

It seems they'll return in 2011 with a full program, that's the rumor from the paddock. I hope the reliability issues will be solved in the off-season, I don't think we've seen the last of them.

They'll need it because I expect Highcroft's LMP1 to be fully sorted out by Wheels Down.

Although I have no numbers to back it up, I'd be surprised if Mazda's support of all the above adds up to half of Audi or Puegeot's budget.

[KSR88]

Mazda has very serious finance problems. They are still losing money while Honda and others have turned the corner and posted record profit. They may not have turned the ship and a double dip recession-as many experts are now predicting could take them out.
Old products and old technology.
Late this spring they decided to license hybrid technology from Toyota and buy parts from Toyota's supplier family. Not a sign of health. And a sure sign of incorrect R&D direction.
If I were Dyson I would have switched engines 10 blow ups ago. In this day racing engine blowups are very rare-except on the Mazda ALMS engine.

[JAG]

The OAK team still has Mazda France backing even though they now run Judd engines.

If however Dyson is an AER shareholder it seems they will stay with them and you would hope improve in 2011.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

The OAK team still has Mazda France backing even though they now run Judd engines.

If however Dyson is an AER shareholder it seems they will stay with them and you would hope improve in 2011.

Maybe Castrol/ARCO see enough merit in retaining Dyson as a billboard(?) and we will continue to see that livery on the car. Dyson to a N/A version of the P32 V-8. Or a hook-up with Nissan and run a reworked P25 V-6.




L.P.

[hcl123]

Was this Mazda concept made perhaps with a future Lemans Cup participation in mind ?... as a concept i believe it could be changed easely to conform GT endurance rules!?

http://www.google.pt/search?q=mazda+...ient=firefox-a

Mazda Furai Concept w/ rotary sound/autotao.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEOHn7rspsk