DTM still has a long way to go to survive by Rob Veltman

[Alex K]

Another great read, I think all of us can add something to the discussion, because the topic on agenda is... Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters, what to do to survive.

DTM still has a long way to go to survive

[zac510]

I don't think the author validly explains how DTM will not survive - he just explained what he doesn't like about it at the moment and doesn't really explain how those things will cause it to fail either economically, politically or in public popularity.

His comparison with Australian V8SC is mostly, IMO, invalid. It suffers from the same problems he cites DTM as having.

[helgi]

What's the problem we should discuss?I cannot see it in the article.

[FIRE]

The main problem of DTM are not the technical rules or race format but the influence of Mercedes and Audi. If drivers could race for own glory I think the races would be much more interesting. So will the new technical rules attract more manufacturers and teams? I am not convinced, first Mercedes and Audi have to change their policy.

BTW is Rob Veltman member of this forum?

[Alex K]

It is also technical thing. Everyone should be allowed to use custom blueprint for Mercedes-Benz and Audi, blueprint which could have been used by independent factories, not only HWA and Abt Sportsline. What we've got today is farce, year by year they choose drivers to driver 4 new cars, rest must use 1 or even 2 year old cars. Free of choice? Let the likes of Zakspeed, Holzer, Rosberg, Abt, Mucke... build the cars, or buy them from outsource company. In theory at least, every car will have same chance.

[flor]

You mean like in F3 where you buy a Dallara or Mygale or whatever?

[Alex K]

I mean like in V8 Supercars or NASCAR leagues, where you choose chassis from different providers, manufacture providers inc.

[SALEEN S7R]

It could work, providing it was only the chassis that was made from a specalist manufacturer. People like Lola, Dallara, G Force, Dome, Zytek could all make competitve chassis I think. However some teams would have better chassis than others and the performance gap between the top teams and bottom teams could well be bigger than it is now.

[Alex K]

I doubt, if you prepare them from the same blueprint and the same technical documentation cars should be the same on performance ground.

It can't be worse than it is now?!

Other major issue is... sporting rule book.

[helgi]

Well,what are we talking about?Do we want to see a show with no gap between first and last row?Then we should be happy with a monoclass racing.I want to see a Real battle.To reveal the best combination of car and pilot.And it doesn't matter to me what gaps will be.It wil be Sport,not show. It would be great if such competitors like Zakspeed return,and construct racing cars on their own. It will be Real DTM,DTM 'it ought to be'.

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by Alex K

It is also technical thing. Everyone should be allowed to use custom blueprint for Mercedes-Benz and Audi, blueprint which could have been used by independent factories, not only HWA and Abt Sportsline. What we've got today is farce, year by year they choose drivers to driver 4 new cars, rest must use 1 or even 2 year old cars. Free of choice? Let the likes of Zakspeed, Holzer, Rosberg, Abt, Mucke... build the cars, or buy them from outsource company. In theory at least, every car will have same chance.

But what would you do with all the past year's cars? They already try to equalize the past year's veh with different base weights.

[zac510]

I would think that if you asked those teams if they want to build their own chassis they would probably say 'nein'. Too expensive and too time consuming.

[werner]

It's all right if Audi and Mercedes make their own chassisses and engines. If they then sell them to teams, who finetune them and then race them. Let the best team and driver win.
But as long as the DTM is run by Germans it won't be easy to follow the Australian example. It's just because Germans aren't Australians, they lack the easygoing spirit to 'see what happens'. They like to be in control. Maybe Audi en Mercedes need to hire foreign managers to be responsible for the DTM-business.

[zac510]

In V8 Supercars most of the top chassis are built by a few top teams and sold to the smaller teams so it's not really a valid argument. I think you are not entirely wise to how it works down under, which I mean in an inoffensive way. It's hard to tell from the other side of the world

[werner]

I don't know how it goes down under, but i do know the results are good. I do know a bit better how it goes with my neighbours though, Germany is closer to me than most of Australia to you, and thus are Germans to.

[Alex K]

Originally Posted by zac510

In V8 Supercars most of the top chassis are built by a few top teams and sold to the smaller teams so it's not really a valid argument. I think you are not entirely wise to how it works down under, which I mean in an inoffensive way. It's hard to tell from the other side of the world

And that's what I thought of ;-). Should work in DTM.

Originally Posted by kmchow

But what would you do with all the past year's cars? They already try to equalize the past year's veh with different base weights.

Y'know kmchow, before season ended I really thought, esp. after Catalunya disaster, that both Mercedes-Benz and Audi will compromise and and build four 2007 chassis to add them to four existing 2007 chassis? And will dispose rest , I mean 2006 chassis. Cost of building four 2007 chassis would probably be same as building new 2008 chassis, but would improve morale of privateers and drivers, and... ofc ours.

They didn't do it, which is a shame IMO. I know mates, I was naive, such a romantic I am.

[zac510]

All I was trying to say is that they're more closely aligned than you think. The two top manufacturers dominate the privateers both on the track and in business.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Alex K

They didn't do it, which is a shame IMO. I know mates, I was naive, such a romantic I am.

You clearly forgot the fact that Audi recently introduced a new A4 Just like Mercedes updated their DTM car this year to mimick their new C class.

[Speed-King]

Looks like there will be no new regs for 2009 after all. Touring car times wrote that new regs will come at the earliest in 2010 and someone on the official DTM forum (don't go there it's a horrible place) quoted an article from Motorsport aktuell, that said that Audi will only allow new regs if a new manufacturer comes into the series.

[werner]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

the official DTM forum (don't go there it's a horrible place)

You have made me curieus. Before I go there, what is so bad about it?

[Speed-King]

A bunch of ultra-uninformed but ultra-biased morons who spent 2/3s of their time insulting each other (or the drivers and other personell from the enemy manufacturer).
www.dtm.com/forum

Don't say that I didn't warn you...

[clioracer]

Originally Posted by werner

It's all right if Audi and Mercedes make their own chassisses and engines. If they then sell them to teams, who finetune them and then race them. Let the best team and driver win.
But as long as the DTM is run by Germans it won't be easy to follow the Australian example. It's just because Germans aren't Australians, they lack the easygoing spirit to 'see what happens'. They like to be in control. Maybe Audi en Mercedes need to hire foreign managers to be responsible for the DTM-business.

Is it possible to "fine tune them"?
I think it`s only because the Germans, Mercedes Benz and Audi are so good at building top quality touring cars that the series still survives today. GM (Opel) could not win even with a host of good drivers like Frentzen and others. Maybe the cars, when brand new would be too expensive for customer cars.
The easygoing spirit is alive and well in motorsports i think ......in F1 it`s called Toyota!

[Ed Peters]

Originally Posted by FIRE

BTW is Rob Veltman member of this forum?

Yes.... he visits the forum quite often.

[Mr Revhead]

i remember the first time i ever saw DTM on tv.
used to be shown late on a monday night (i used to stay up in secret to watch it as it was waaay past my bed time!)
on came these awesome looking hot rods that looked like mercs, opels, alfas and even some mustangs!

it was awesome.... they looked wild! like the sports sedans they raced here. i loved it.

now i watch it (when i can find some coverage) and i still love it.
why? coz the racing is close and HARD! and the drivers are amoungst the best in the world.
but..... i agree.... having two makers with 4 currant cars each and making the other teams run old cars is just ludicris!! too many drugs around that rule making table...

i watch the V8SCs here, and i love that series..... its a 2 make heavily regulated series, but i feel there is more teams there that can win a race than there is in DTM. they are similar in ways.... but at the end of the day i think the V8s have it worked out a bit better.

for example: DTM.... 2 makers run the top 8 cars in thier own teams and the other teams must run old cars.

V8SC, while the 2 makers have factory teams, they support many teams with chassis and engines. and the tech rules are made in such a way that a privateer team can afford to make thier own chassis, or have their own engine department.
or in the case of TKR they can lease a car off another team, therefore having the latest spec for a fraction of the cost making them far far more competitive than they otherwise would be.

[FIRE]

I don't know in which topic to post this, but IMO this is how DTM cars should look like (except 4 doors instead of 2):




Photo source: www.autoweek.nl

Mercedes C-class, Audi A4 with these type of spoilers...Real cars, not the current tubeframe cars with plastic bodies...