F1 Marshals Not Tacking the Job Seriously ?

[darcym]

throughout todays race I saw a fair few incidents where the Marshals didn't appear to have their minds on the job in hand.

On one occasion I saw a Marshall waving a green flag when there was an incident rather than a yellow flag

On at least one occasion in the pit stops a pit lane marshal was recording the pitstop on his phone camera about 1 meter away from the stop,

There where a few other minor incidents during the GP, is this sort of thing acceptable to you guys ?

I was a little dissapointed in truth, more so when these guys trust their lives to Marshals.

[greentrumpet]

Not sure about the incident you refer to but saw one where the green flag was shortly after the incident. That would be correct, the yellow should be before.

[Stephen Green]

It's always a difficult one to judge when you are not there to see in person.

With regard to the green flag, if the incident is just before the flag point then a green flag would be waved at the post immediately after the incident although a little bit of common sense is often required. At F1 races the Blue and Yellow flag marshals are told when to show flags by race control, I'm not sure whether this applied to green flags though.

As for taking photographs while on duty the rule in the UK is that you are NOT allowed to take photographs while on duty. This rule however seems to be ignored or relaxed in many other countries and so you will see marshals with cameras quite regularly. There have been incidents where marshals have been sent home and had their tabbards removed for infringing the rule in the UK but not so in other countries.

It is also the case that in many countries the marshals are paid to attend the race, unlike the UK and many other European races, so you tend to get what you pay for. I can't say whether this is the case in Malaysia as I haven't marshalled there.

[bludvl_x19]

Ah, I wondered about this in your other post....if the preceding point has gone yellow (the incident is in their sector) then the digiflag will automatically go green at the next point. I haven't seen the incident in question, but camera angles can be deceiving, where you may think it is behind a flagpoint, it may be far in front of it. Until I see the incident for my own eyes, I am going to side with the flaggie that was on the spot, they have the best information at the time, and no time like us to continually rethink the decision.

Bugger, beaten a couple of times

[Stephen Green]

It was a marshal waving the green flag not a digi flag

[bludvl_x19]

I got this quote from the podium flag thread, and then saw this thread.

Originally Posted by darcym

during the race...I'll try to find where - I'm sure Hamilton was the poor guy in question, he was coming up to an incident and the marshalls where waving green flags rather than yellow flags, and the light system was flash green rather than yellow.

[Stephen Green]

As was said earlier. If the incident takes place immediately before the marshals flag post then a waved green flag is correct, the marshals in the preceding post would have been showing a waved yellow flag. The waved yellow flag is only shown at the post before the accident to warn drivers that they are approaching a possible danger area. I believe the marshals acted in accordance with the rules.

[broadrun96]

I did catch the guy in pitlane with the camera phone, I had assumed he was assigned to the next pit and there didn't seem to be anyone in the box then. Are marshals assigned to specific boxes or are there just pit lane officials and they watch whatever is in the area? Or would this be a local authority decision?

[Stephen Green]

It may vary from country to country but in the UK marshals are assigned specific jobs within the pit lane and are NOT allowed to take photographs under any circumstances

[darcym]

this isn't a dig at marshals, just to be clear, %101 respect for all they do. The guys at Malaysia just seemed sloppy and in some cases dangerous.

The flag incident could have been percecption, however the flag post looked to be dead online, if not a meter after the acident, which in terms of the common sense Stephen has suggested, waving a green a meter after an acident would be nuts in my experience, however in some peoples eyes acceptable, I'll have to re-watch (any excuse) to get a better perspective on this.

The guy filming the pit stop was toally unacceptable, either he was there and that close to do a job, in which case shouldn't be filming, or he wasn't doing a job, in shouldn't have been that close. There was other minor incidents throughout the race, but these just stood out for me.

I agree with what Stepehen said in general that places like the UK the standard and rules are much higher, however in places such as Malaysia, Abu Dabi etc, it just seems an "anything goes" type attitude.

[Stephen Green]

Well in Abu Dhabi it is the British marshals who 'run' the big meetings as they don't have their own marshals yet. We go there to help train the local people and the unfortunate part is that it happens in a very public arena as they only have 'big' meetings.

At last years GP there were over 300 British marshals working at the circuit, since then we have marshalled Asian GP2, Aussie V8's and later this month FIA GT's.

[Piglet]

Can't be arsed to quote.

As Stephen says, different countries have different rules. In my view a marshal filming a pit stop in race conditions is entirely unacceptable and if done in my pit lane they would be going home straight away. However, certainly in some European countries, it is not uncommon to see a marshal on the grid filming cars as they form up. Again, it's not something that you would see in the UK..

I think I saw the green flag/yellow flag incident and at first glance it looked wrong. At second glance it was entirely as it ought to have been, yellow flags for the sector in which the incident was, green at the post after the cars had passed the incident. It looked odd on TV because of the camera angle and the foreshortening effect of the camera. And yes, if the flag point is a metre after the accident that's where the green should be, it's after the incident - why would compromise a further sector?

...and to whoever it was on the "podium" flags forum remarking on the use of a white flag instead of a yellow, as was said on that thread, this is entirely correct where there is a slow moving vehicle on the track, you will also see it used when their are breakdowns or other service vehicles on track.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by darcym

this isn't a dig at marshals, just to be clear, %101 respect for all they do. The guys at Malaysia just seemed sloppy and in some cases dangerous.

The flag incident could have been percecption, however the flag post looked to be dead online, if not a meter after the acident, which in terms of the common sense Stephen has suggested, waving a green a meter after an acident would be nuts in my experience, however in some peoples eyes acceptable, I'll have to re-watch (any excuse) to get a better perspective on this.

The guy filming the pit stop was toally unacceptable, either he was there and that close to do a job, in which case shouldn't be filming, or he wasn't doing a job, in shouldn't have been that close. There was other minor incidents throughout the race, but these just stood out for me.

I agree with what Stepehen said in general that places like the UK the standard and rules are much higher, however in places such as Malaysia, Abu Dabi etc, it just seems an "anything goes" type attitude.

Two coments:

TV shows what they want when they want...

The way Marshals are treated (world-wide) is not ideal and for F1 tends to attract the pinacle of volunteers, some with the wrong attitude and those that have been through the wringer and are there to get what THEY want out of the race meeting because of the way they have been treated in the past!

Its never too simple

[Perksy]

one point i noticed:
After Alonso pulled to one side with his engine smoking, the marshals moving toward him from the nearest post were all without fire bottles. Unheard of in the UK I think. Are F1 marshals instructed not to damage expensive F1 cars with powder (I doubt this, but am trying to see all angles) or is this a "training-need"?

[Chiefy]

I noticed the green flag. My first thought was that it maybe should be yellow - but technically I think that flag would have been on the exit of the corner and just beyond the 'scene of the crime'. Surely yellows were waved in advance of drivers' arriving at the incident.

I saw the pitlane incident too and was a bit surprised, but I don't know so much about the rules on that.

[duke_toaster]

Would I be right in saying that in Singapore they flew out Aussie post chiefs? Perhaps they need to do that for countries with low standards of marshalling - or possibly even whole teams.

Some have proposed that there should be one team of marshals that go round the world with the F1 circus in the past, that is wholly impractical - but there are some races where there should be a few experienced people on each post brought in to rein in some of this low grade marshalling, which is dangerous for the marshals themselves as well as the drivers.

(Disclaimer : unlike some posters, I am not a marshal, however I have the greatest respect for those who provide the high standard of marshalling that is seen in race meetings in many countries, including the UK)

[Piglet]

TBH, I don't think F1 needs full time marshals. Flags are controlled by Race Control over a radio system. There are Fast Doctor cars all around the circuit which can get to any one spot in a certain amount of time (I forget the figure but I think it's seconds rather than minutes?).

Pit marshals are to some extent surplus to requirements other than for helping to push cars to and from the weighbridge.

Incident marshals will again be controlled by Race Control and if there was concern about the quality then they would use a form of Rescue Crew a la Rockingham Safety Crews either under cover of white flags or with a safety car.

[Stephen Green]

Originally Posted by Perksy

one point i noticed:
After Alonso pulled to one side with his engine smoking, the marshals moving toward him from the nearest post were all without fire bottles. Unheard of in the UK I think. Are F1 marshals instructed not to damage expensive F1 cars with powder (I doubt this, but am trying to see all angles) or is this a "training-need"?

There way well have been extinguishers behind the armco nearer to the car in which case it is easier and safer to run to those than to carry heavy bottles with you.

[racerkeke]

Re the idea of a dedicated F1 marshalling crew:
Yes, but then you run into the "pros from Dover" syndrome. Not only do the locals resent these guys coming in like rock stars and, taking the "good" stations and ordering people about, but some of the flying crew may get expanded ideas about their worth. Even if that flying crew is also volunteer like the rest a perceived "us and them" attitude crops up. Never mind that in most of the countries where improved skills might be needed there's also a language barrier.

And what would you do about reporting? Understanding that the promoter makes the deal with a marshalling group, as part of the conditions of contract for the race as a whole (along with porta-potties, fencing and gold-plated fixtures in Bernie's suite).... I can see a squeezed promoter not paying the bill for the marshals if they receive a report on training needs from the pros. Which doesn't get anyone anywhere!
keke

[Purist]

Given all the other personnel and equipment they're already flying around the world, I don't see doing the same for marshals as being that outlandish. Honestly, they should at least have a core of marshals who oversee such proceedings at every F1 meeting. F1 fly around their own response and medical teams, don't they? If not, they really ought to take a page from the Indy/Champ Car book on that aspect of things.

As to extinguishers, I believe Appendix H to the regs calls for a manned fire bottle stationed every 150m, and a fire bottle (doesn't have to be manned) every 50m along the armco.

[Stephen Green]

Abu Dhabi flew about 350 British marshals out last October for the GP there, realistically how many countries could do that not forgetting you have to feed and accommodate that number of people as well?

Champ/Indy rarely venture outside of the US so it is not comparing like for like to suggest adopting their methods.

The majority of circuits around the world have a great crew of marshals who do a fantastic job. The problem really comes with countries where motorsport is not so prolific as it is in the UK, Europe, US and Australia/N Zealand. Those countries have to find people to marshal for what might be one of only a handful of races in the country that year.

There is no simple solution other than to keep helping to train those people who need it.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Purist

Given all the other personnel and equipment they're already flying around the world, I don't see doing the same for marshals as being that outlandish. Honestly, they should at least have a core of marshals who oversee such proceedings at every F1 meeting. F1 fly around their own response and medical teams, don't they? If not, they really ought to take a page from the Indy/Champ Car book on that aspect of things.

It might not be outlandish but why do it if there isn't a need? So far what has been pointed out is a yellow/green flag incident that was correctly dealt with and one marshal filming in the pit lane...hardly warrants the added cost of flying another 50 people around the world in my book.

F1 as an organisation brings its high level medical people, but otherwise relies on local doctors and nurses to man the circuit and the med centre.

In many countries experienced marshals are already brought in to help to educate and train the locals, that's a much better idea than bringing in the "pro's" at every event.

[mark_l]

Did anyone see the marshal take a photo of Schumacher on the back of the moped as he was driven back to the pits?

[racerkeke]

Champ stopped doing the "core group" thing in 2003 and the IRL does not do it at all -- in fact whatever Champ flying crew members are left after all the upheavals are not even permitted to volunteer at their oval events. The concerns that I mentioned were the issues we struggled with in Champ -- even in two countries we had trouble with them.

Also, IMO, Bernie would never do anything that would cost HIM money (ie specifying something under the umbrella of F1), although he might mandate something similar for the promoters to pay for, as he did in Abu Dhabi.
keke

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

The problem really comes with countries where motorsport is not so prolific as it is in the UK, Europe, US and Australia/N Zealand.

There is no simple solution other than to keep helping to train those people who need it.

Or to take the so-called pinnacle of motorsport to countries where they have motorsport...