The New Senna?

[bauble]

There s no doubting that Lewis Hamilton is a very good Grand Prix driver, his record speaks for himself, however, after his easy run to become a triple World Champion, the hyperbole has started.

This year he has clearly had the best car on the grid and only had to beat his team mate to win the title. So is he really that good?

Prior to joining Mercedes he drove for McLaren and in 2013 when the Mac was not a dominant car his record is merely ordinary, as the record shows.

In the 19 races his top ten positions were as follows;

6th.
3rd.
3rd.
6th.
x
4th.
3rd.
4th.
5th.
1st.
3rd.
9th.
5th.
5th.
x
6th.
7th.
4th.
9th.

Even such a talent could not overcome the deficiencies of his machinery. Without the car Lewis is just another top class driver.

I believe we have to wait a while longer before placing him in the F1 pecking order.
The same can also be said of Alonso and Vettel, as without the car neither has added greatly to there reputation, as history judges such things.

My point is that the hype obscures the reality of today.

In my opinion it will be ten years down the line before any modern driver can
be viewed objectively.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Without the car. Alonso 2012. Vettel 2015. Not going to lie, I think Vettel is the best driver since Schumacher and deserves his place up there with them. Hamilton is at his peak but considering we may never get a chance to see him handle a mediocre car in his peak, I think it would be quite harsh to judge him like this. You can only beat who you're up against. In my mind, Rosberg hasn't taken a step backwards this year, but Hamilton has improved into by far the better driver.

However, I agree with what you say about it being 10 years until we can judge them properly. Max Verstappen could be the best example of that.

[VIVA GT]

I think you're quite right Baub.
It's a sad habit of our times that 'The Media' feel the need to hang a label onto everything/everyone.
It's a bit like Monty Python's life of Brian, Lewis is not the New Senna, he is (the current) Lewis Hamilton, and that's that!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bauble

This year he has clearly had the best car on the grid and only had to beat his team mate to win the title. So is he really that good?

Vettel got a LOT of flack for having the nerve to win in the best car. Lewis gets compared to Senna. Wat?

Jim Clark and Senna won titles in the best cars and nobody questions them. What this proves isn't how good drivers really are, but how quickly we rubbish drivers we don't like, even if they achieve great things.

[davec]

Out of the 65? championships how many have NOT been won with the best car?

I am not necessarily talking about the quickest but the overall best package? I think that most people would struggle to think of maybe more than 5 that have been won and certainly no one has dominated in a car that wasn't dominant.

If you put 50% of the grid in the Mercedes then they could win the title. The same goes for the red bull and the Ferrari and the Williams before that.

With different team mates we could have Rosberg,Webber,Barrichello,coulthard and Patrese as world champions and although they are all great drivers are they "world champions"?

I do not want to take away from the recent champions but in this sport you will NEVER dominate without the best car and team.

[Paradise City]

Vettel has climbed in my estimation because he's done wonders in that Ferrari. His attitude has improved too. I felt that him winning in the best car left me underwhelmed because I frankly didn't know where Vettel began and Newey ended. That Vettel has taken on a new challenge and succeeded in that, that I like, and I feel confident in saying he's an outstanding driver.

It's unsurprising that Hamilton is being feted in the media. As if there's some golden time when media was nuanced about these things! He won three, Senna won three, media are going draw comparisons to that and there was never an era in media where they wouldn't do that.

Not that Hamilton isn't a worthy enough driver. I think he's a superb one. I think the way he challenged Alonso in that first year was something else. I wouldn't put him in the same rank as Senna but I wouldn't put Fangio in the same rank as Schumacher either -- because of the almost war-level risks Fangio took in order for him to win so prolifically.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Vettel got a LOT of flack for having the nerve to win in the best car. Lewis gets compared to Senna. Wat?

Jim Clark and Senna won titles in the best cars and nobody questions them. What this proves isn't how good drivers really are, but how quickly we rubbish drivers we don't like, even if they achieve great things.

With great respect I do not believe my post can be seen as 'rubbishing' Hamilton. I merely suggest that is too early to truly estimate his position in the pantheon of 'greats'.

[chillibowl]

Bauble, im usually the one giving you a hard time over your opinion of LH, but totally agree with you here. you asked a perfectly fair question and yeah its too early to place him in the pantheon. 3 titles for 2 separate teams puts him in the conversation but his position could yet still rise or fall given how the rest of his career plays out.

that said,

Originally Posted by davec

If you put 50% of the grid in the Mercedes then they could win the title. The same goes for the red bull and the Ferrari and the Williams before that.

often said about dominant cars but how many of that 50% of the grid could win a title in a Merc if LH was their team mate?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

It's a bit like Monty Python's life of Brian, Lewis is not the New Senna, he is (the current) Lewis Hamilton, and that's that!

Holy Grail works too!

'How do you do, good lady. I am [Lewis Hamilton], King of the Britons!'

[Paradise City]

History decides these things. Noone says Piquet and Senna were on par with each other. Noone thinks that.

And once the crude media buzz dies down, history will judge Senna and Hamilton in a more nuanced way as well and it'll be able to discern the differences between the two.

With the one caveat that Senna's death and even his demeanor whilst alive probably gives him extra status in terms of his value in F1 history.

[old man]

Perhaps we should consider "Great Drivers" and "Great Racers".

I believe the dominant car that Schumacher had in the Ferrari years flattered him a little but the Benetton years were another thing. At Ferrari with Byrne, Brawn Todd and the team, unlimited revisions and testing, unlimited finance many drivers could have emulated him. That did not really apply at Benetton.

Similarly his return at Mercedes was a step too far. Rosberg is capable of putting up a comparable lap time to Hamilton in qualifying most weeks but does not race as well. The comments about the first corner at Austin are valid but as the international driver sitting with me on Sunday shouted as they came to first corner, "Let him have it Nico", working on the principle that you lose as many races at the first corner as you win.

J Stewart reckons Hamilton is the fastest driver out there, I think that is marginal but I do think he is just about the best racer. Many will now respond that Alonso is the one to take that position but remember their battles in 2007

The whole scene at the moment is fascinating but driver's ability as always is only a part of the picture, we suffer from being a sport where the equipment is such a large influence on the success rate.

Now if you put them all on a class 1 kart it would be interesting, you might find some surprising results then, remember Senna quoted Terry Fullerton as the best he had raced against.

Mmmmm.... what did Hamilton do on a kart? or Will Stevens for that matter?

[S griffin]

Lewis is certainly a driver who could push a wheelbarrow up he hill. He certainly has made races exciting at times. We saw his overtaking prowess in GP2.

Interesting that he feels honoured to equal Senna's titles. Senna always wanted to match Fangio's record then retire

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Holy Grail works too!

'How do you do, good lady. I am [Lewis Hamilton], King of the Britons!'

I always wondered why Lewis hadn't got sh*t all over him!

[old man]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I always wondered why Lewis hadn't got sh*t all over him!

?

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by old man

?

It's a joke from Holy Grail.
The lack of sh*t over a person is how you can tell he's King!

[old man]

Ah, sorry for my ignorance, put it down to age

[JeremySmith]

Max is the new Senna not that we need one ...
Senna was let's face it one of the most charismatic, if not the most charismatic drivers that racing has ever seen..
So IMHO. It's a mute point ..

[djinvicta]

Agreed, Max is a talent out there at a very early age. Fun and spectacular to watch.

I watched Lewis in a pre F1 race at Magny Cour, 2003 or 2004, i think. Started at the back and wow, won it by overtaking where you really couldnt/shouldnt. Impressive and Max reminds me of that.

All the comparisons to Ayrton, sometimes I wonder if it's fair. I think Ayrton would have won many many more World titles had he not died that day.

[djinvicta]

As an afterthought: I don't really think you can compare the driving 'skills' from yesteryear to today. Give them a gear knob today, foot clutch and we would have a different result every race.
That is not saying you cannot see raw ballsy talent coming through in some of todays youngsters.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

As an afterthought: I don't really think you can compare the driving 'skills' from yesteryear to today. Give them a gear knob today, foot clutch and we would have a different result every race.
That is not saying you cannot see raw ballsy talent coming through in some of todays youngsters.

I don't think that is an afterthought. It's the single most important thing to consider. Then driver training, fitness, simulators etc. It's very much a different world.

[Pontlieue]

In my opinion, Hamilton is one of the top drivers when it comes to raw pace. When it comes to starting from the front and pulling away with raw pace, few drivers can rival him. However, I think Alonso and Vettel are more complete racing drivers.

Hamilton is only good as long as things are going his way. But for example, his drive in Hungary this year was really, really clumsy. And the less said about his 2011 season, the better.

Alonso has delivered top results in cars with varying quality for over ten years now. The title fights he put up against Vettel in 2010 and especially in 2012 were great.

I've really grown to respect Vettel this year though. I wasn't entirely convinced of his abilities even after four titles. But how he was always there when Merc showed the occasional sign of weakness, managed to pull ahead of Rosberg in the WDC, and remain in contention for the title until Austin in an obviously inferior car has really impressed me.

[bauble]

In 1950 there was only seven rounds of the Championship, one of which was the Indie 500 and none of the European teams entered, this year there are 19 races to count, so listing the number of wins for a driver weighs heavily on the side of the current crop. More important is the percentage of wins to starts, and Fangio and Clark both do rather well in this respect 50 & 33 respectively

Difficult to compare different eras isn't it? And what about the chances of dying in a crash today compared with the 50's and 60's?

Makes comparisons somewhat invalid I suggest.

[Paradise City]

You might have had circa seven championship rounds but you had a clogged calendar of big events including many non-championship F1 races with most drivers competing in multiple series. F1 races could be quite long too, circa 3 hours and zero safety features, not even a seat belt or a helmet in the cars and virtually nothing around the track. Some of the terrain in some GPs was more akin to rallying than circuit racing. 50's really was another planet.

You can't make definitive comparisons, no, but equally people will still be there to make speculative comparisons of different eras until the end of time.

[S griffin]

Agree that Max is like Senna in natural talent and pushing a car higher than it should be and a thorn in the side to the more experienced drivers.

[stripedcat]

It's a little too early to put Lewis up there with Senna - perhaps the media getting ahead of themselves. I think, looking back to his debut season - he probably had the best debut season of any F1 driver ever. Truly some stunning performances(Canada, Indy - not letting Alonso overtake him and Fuji in the wet). It did make you sit up and take notice of him. He very nearly won the WDC. Then the following year he took it. A lot of people expected him to take multiple titles - but it took him until 2014 to get his second one. He probably found F1 a lot tougher than he thought it would be.

He's got a good set of achievements in terms of results - and he's also won at least one race for every season that he's been in F1 - who else on the current grid can say that?

I think his strengths are his amazing pace - helped by his oversteery driving style. Over a single lap - it might be him or Vettel who are the fastest - I would have added Kimi to that list, but he seems lacking in mojo. I'd say he's probably the second best qualifier behind Vettel at the moment. Very good in wet weather conditions - if it goes from wet to dry track - then maybe someone like Button would beat him. Good racecraft - if sometimes problematic.

He can get flustered - he did seem to be a little like that at the beginning of the US race. Plus, there was Hungary - and also Austria. Then he doesn't seem to know how to settle back down and race carefully - maybe not for the win - but for a decent points haul - like say someone like Prost would have - playing the long game.

Vettel seems happy at Ferrari now. I think that doing 4 back-to-back titles took a lot out of him. Vettel can crack under pressure during a race(think Canada 2012 or USA 2012). That seems to be a weak spot for him. But, he does seem more mature in his role at Ferrari - and he'll definitely get more WDCs.


Alonso might not be the fastest driver of a single lap - although, he seems to have better race pace. What particularly impressed me about him, was his near close calls with the WDC in the Ferrari. He wasn't driving the fastest car in the field - yet very nearly took it on two occasions. He is relentless in a race - reminds me a bit of Mansell. Quite good in wet conditions - much like Vettel, Button and Lewis. I think he's able to cope with pressure slightly better than both Vettel and Hamilton - just look at his battle with Schumi at Imola in 2005.