Existential question

[BSchneiderFan]

Jerome Stoll of Renault thinks that the engine manufacturers should be considered the "main players" in F1, as it couldn't happen without them. I'm not so sure. I think the teams are the backbone of Formula 1. After all, the days when almost everyone apart from Ferrari used a stock DFV weren't bad years for the sport. Thoughts?

[chillibowl]

i think i would respond better to an engine maker saying this if it wasnt coming from the Renault camp...i have lingering issues with how they have handled their branding over the last decade so am a tad cynical when it comes to this manu.

as to your question though...for me, its a bit like Adidas saying that the World cup should be about Adidas because they are the ones who provide the balls and you cant play the game without balls.

as you say, if Renault or the other engine manus were not there then the the teams would just use a stock part/equipment as a replacement and the game would go on.

so in an existential sense, there is an element of absurdity in suggesting that the equipment should be the most important aspect of sport. for me its not more important than the athletes and not more important than the teams who organize the competition.

i am reminded of a Michael Jordan/Nike commercial where Spike Lee claimed that 'it's gotta be the shoes' when describing MJ's prowess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abr_LU822rQ

a great ad and no doubt helped to sell a lot of shoes but the reality is that it doesnt explain why some athletes (and teams) are worth watching and supporting.

[steve_r]

The introduction of these massively over-complicated and massively over-priced power units probably means that there is an element of truth in what he says.

[Moneyseeker]

I think the engine regs after 2020 will be quite interesting, I don't think that Liberty wants to be held to 'ransom' by anybody and F1 has become too reliant on the big manufacturers who they will know can realistically walk away from F1 at any time regardless of what pieces of paper they have signed (e.g. Toyota).

Remember that Liberty has a foot in FE too, so they may think that let FE do the high tech showcasing and bring F1 back to basics with a more standard engine with KERS, something that is in the range of a wider spread of engine builders to provide?

[djinvicta]

I think Liberty will spring a few surprises over the next few years. The Bernie reign is over, and it must move forward with todays technology. This situation really had to happen. Me included, we ploughed on with Bernie over the years thinking he would never end..of course it had to. Lets look forward and see what 2017 brings, as normal, it will be controversial..we all wont like it, but it is a step to keep F1 going without BE...

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Jerome Stoll of Renault thinks that the engine manufacturers should be considered the "main players" in F1, as it couldn't happen without them. I'm not so sure. I think the teams are the backbone of Formula 1. After all, the days when almost everyone apart from Ferrari used a stock DFV weren't bad years for the sport. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that you also couldn't run F1 without tyres or chassis. So unless Stoll has a plan to run his engine on its own via some sort of hover system, the idea of "it couldn't happen without them" is ridiculous.

If the hybrids became too expensive and all the engine manufacturers left, they'd just revert back to regular engines and you'd get the usual players from Mecachrome or even Gibson involved. So it isn't like they HAVE to have them. But what you do need is someone building cars for the engines to go in.

[S griffin]

The fact is, with so many engine manufacturers supplying different teams, chassis design has become just as important and so teams are the ones who make the difference

[old man]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I think the engine regs after 2020 will be quite interesting, I don't think that Liberty wants to be held to 'ransom' by anybody and F1 has become too reliant on the big manufacturers who they will know can realistically walk away from F1 at any time regardless of what pieces of paper they have signed (e.g. Toyota).

Remember that Liberty has a foot in FE too, so they may think that let FE do the high tech showcasing and bring F1 back to basics with a more standard engine with KERS, something that is in the range of a wider spread of engine builders to provide?

Tend to agree with this assessment. For road cars, emissions are becoming the critical factor in what the manufacturers sell and so we could find them switching to FE, it has already started really. The FE races that I have seen, admittedly a very limited number, were good with some excitement based really on the tight confines of the tracks used. I did think that running a field of such cars at Silverstone would not be as "interesting".

If that is the way forward for manufacturers then the F1 scene needs to adopt engine regulations that open up the market

[Peter Mallett]

Actually there would be no racing without the Marshals and other volunteers. They are far more important.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Actually there would be no racing without the Marshals and other volunteers. They are far more important.

I knew that someone would bring this one up eventually.
It reminds me of a 'discussion' I had with an arrogant (unusual - they're usually such lovely people) Marshal in the bar at Silverstone one evening in the late 1980's. He was insistent that we should buy his beers "...because without us marshals you wouldn't be able to race your cars!". We pointed out to him that without teams like us who built the cars, and our drivers, he wouldn't have any racing to marshal!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Jerome Stoll of Renault thinks that the engine manufacturers should be considered the "main players" in F1, as it couldn't happen without them. I'm not so sure. I think the teams are the backbone of Formula 1. After all, the days when almost everyone apart from Ferrari used a stock DFV weren't bad years for the sport. Thoughts?

He seems to be forgetting that some entrants choose to build their own engines.
Could F1 exist without engines? - no.
Could it exist without engine(only) suppliers? - possibly.
Could it exist without Renault supplying engines? - easily.

[coppice]

I used to marshal for many years and very much enjoyed it . A few ocean going bores and gob s**tes , perhaps , but that happens everywhere. But I do sense a creeping self aggrandisement by a minority - what the hell is that 'heroes on tour 'thing about ? I certainly wasn't a hero- I did it to feel part of an event and getting in for nowt was a bonus.

It's a necessary , but unglamorous role and certainly doesn't merit being regarded as some act of selfless heroism.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I knew that someone would bring this one up eventually.
It reminds me of a 'discussion' I had with an arrogant (unusual - they're usually such lovely people) Marshal in the bar at Silverstone one evening in the late 1980's. He was insistent that we should buy his beers "...because without us marshals you wouldn't be able to race your cars!". We pointed out to him that without teams like us who built the cars, and our drivers, he wouldn't have any racing to marshal!

Understood, but in the context of Formula One, I think the difference is that one group of people, the Teams and Engine Builders etc. are there for business reasons, the Marshals are all volunteers. They don't have to turn up.

[NaBUru38]

Except for Ferrari, entries come and go.

McLaren has been doing poorly since 2013.
Renault has done poorly since 2009.
Williams did poorly in the late 2000s and early 2010s.
Red Bull debuted in 2005.
Mercedes returned in 1994.

Can we say that Red Bull defines F1? Or Williams? Or McLaren? I think not.

[BSchneiderFan]

There is a difference between saying that one particular team defines F1, and that teams (as opposed to manufacturers) in general do.