Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach

[FstrthnU]

Barber was a very nice race, but now we'll get another chance to see how well the new cars work on tight street courses.

April 15 @ 3:30 PM ET on NBC

[Purist]

If only it was on NBC, as opposed to NBCSN.

Anyway, Long Beach isn't that horribly tight overall. The "Fountain Complex" and "the Hairpin" are rather confined, but most of the rest is reasonably spacious, and all the "straights" have a decent amount of room to maneuver on.

That rear wing ought to help give a nice slipstream to a trailing car going down Shoreline Drive.

[NaBUru38]

Starting at Long Beach, "he pitlane will be kept open during non-emergency full-course yellows, and lapped traffic will be moved to the back of the field prior to the restart". This "could result in full-course caution periods becoming as short as two laps".

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Starting at Long Beach, "he pitlane will be kept open during non-emergency full-course yellows, and lapped traffic will be moved to the back of the field prior to the restart". This "could result in full-course caution periods becoming as short as two laps".

1. Moving lapped cars to the back will take a lap by itself to organize. So it's not going to be as short as two laps.
2. How are you ever supposed to get your lap back if you have a fast enough car to do so?

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

1. Moving lapped cars to the back will take a lap by itself to organize. So it's not going to be as short as two laps.
2. How are you ever supposed to get your lap back if you have a fast enough car to do so?

I don't like it. I certainly don't like it if its about handing a lap back like F1 has done but I don't think its that!

It seems to me to be tweaking the rules for the sake of tweaking them rather tweaking the rules for some deliberated purpose. Some of the great Indycars races that flash through my mind involved cars scrambling over reluctant backmarkers. It could be ugly at times but ugly is often entertaining. I would've expected someone who has cut his teeth in the ALMS to more appreciate this angle. Guess not!

[Purist]

Long Beach, in its eighth different layout since the first event in 1975, is 1.968 miles with, officially, 11 corners. The hairpin at the end of the lap is the slowest, tightest corner in Indy Car racing (~30-mph), and little quicker than the hairpins at Monaco or Macau. The race runs for 85 laps, giving a total distance of 167.28 miles.

[NaBUru38]

Speaking of corners, I don't understand how Americans count corners in ovals. Indianapolis has four, that's off the question. To me, most of the tracks have two, but you usually say there are four. Let's use Milwaukee as an example. Where does the turn 1 end and the turn 2 start?

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Let's use Milwaukee as an example. Where does the turn 1 end and the turn 2 start?

Easy, in the middle of the short chute between the two.

[Purist]

That's one I've never entirely understood myself, but it is how it's done, and the FIA recognizes it, so that's just the way it goes.

Way back when, a number of the old ovals, including board tracks and dirt tracks, were more circular, and breaking them up into quarters perhaps just made sense to people, so that's what they did, and it stuck.

I need to catch some horse racing to double check if they use the same terminology, in which case, there may be a different, older, explanation for how the corners are designated.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I don't like it. I certainly don't like it if its about handing a lap back like F1 has done but I don't think its that!

It's not. But why did F1 of all series do that? That's going further than NASCAR's Lucky Dog Rule.

It seems to me to be tweaking the rules for the sake of tweaking them rather tweaking the rules for some deliberated purpose.

Well they want quicker cautions. Which they should. And they want 2nd to be right behind 1st, 3rd right behind 2nd, etc., which they should. Now granted, especially on road courses, you'll hardly ever see a person gain a lap back on merit by passing the leader, but we should at least provide for the opportunity.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

It's not. But why did F1 of all series do that? That's going further than NASCAR's Lucky Dog Rule.

They are blatantly trying to shovel more cars into the mix. Lucky Dog isn't up to much either. There's still a fast 'sub-race' to stay on the lead lap with or without it.

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Well they want quicker cautions. Which they should. And they want 2nd to be right behind 1st, 3rd right behind 2nd, etc., which they should. Now granted, especially on road courses, you'll hardly ever see a person gain a lap back on merit by passing the leader, but we should at least provide for the opportunity.

I remember leaders like Michael Andretti and Alex Zanardi at various times getting tangled on street courses, losing a lap and having to scramble and storm back up the order. Great racing. Scrambling over backmarkers is an art in itself and grabbing a lap back even on street courses seemed far more common during the late 80's and 90's than it is now.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I remember leaders like Michael Andretti and Alex Zanardi at various times getting tangled on street courses, losing a lap and having to scramble and storm back up the order. Great racing. Scrambling over backmarkers is an art in itself and grabbing a lap back even on street courses seemed far more common during the late 80's and 90's than it is now.

Really? I can't remember one example. I can remember guys getting laps back on ovals routinely, never a road course. The fields were spread a lot wider speed-wise back then than they are now in the '80s (something everyone forgets) and usually if you were a lap down it was an accomplishment if you could stay on the same straightaway as the leader. The '90s were more competitive but still, it's not something I ever remember, unless you're talking about some deal like a Bourdais back when he dominated ChampCar getting a flat tire early and getting a lap back, but he was clearly the top car then, not a case of what we talk about here where a guy was not the best car, but was good and able to get around the leader. That won't go away because you have long-term green flag conditions. It can happen in normal green flag conditions although the speed difference to get lapped means these guys probably won't challenge to pass the leader.

[Flyin Ryan]

Speaking of the competition in the '80s not being as good as we remember it and yet that's one of the Glory Eras, we are 25 years from this race, the 1987 Long Beach Grand Prix, this weekend. The entire race is on Youtube if you want to watch. Look at the results of qualifying in terms of percentage based on pole speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXOwaKjqpzs

1Mario Andretti -65.886- 100.00%
2Roberto Guerrero -66.804- 101.39%
3Emerson Fittipaldi -66.813- 101.41%
4Kevin Cogan -66.924- 101.58%
5Michael Andretti -67.148- 101.92%
6Al Unser Jr. -67.364- 102.24%
7Bobby Rahal -67.561- 102.54%
8Geoff Brabham -67.689- 102.74%
9Danny Sullivan -68.465- 103.91%
10Tom Sneva -68.577- 104.08%
11Josele Garza -68.631- 104.17%
12Arie Luyendyk -68.773- 104.38%
13Jeff MacPherson -68.996- 104.72%
14Fabrizio Barbazza -69.103- 104.88%
15Ludwig Heimrath Jr. -69.449- 105.41%
16Chip Robinson -69.663- 105.73%
17Didier Theys -69.684- 105.76%
18Rick Mears -69.687- 105.77%
19Randy Lewis -70.115- 106.42%
20Rocky Moran -70.234- 106.60%
21Dick Simon -70.287- 106.68%
22Johnny Rutherford -71.348- 108.29%
23Dennis Firestone -72.960- 110.74%
24Tony Bettenhausen Jr. -73.472- 111.51%

And there were 2 more cars that showed up that did not start, Dale Coyne and Mike Nish.

Now compare to 2011 based on first group qualifying speeds:

1Will Power- 69.2846- 100.00%
2Ryan Hunter-Reay -69.3599- 100.11%
3Ryan Briscoe -69.5104- 100.33%
4Alex Tagliani -69.5686- 100.41%
5Dario Franchitti -69.6014- 100.46%
6Mike Conway -69.7079- 100.61%
7Tony Kanaan -69.7595- 100.69%
8Scott Dixon -69.7859- 100.72%
9James Hinchcliffe -69.8358- 100.80%
10Helio Castroneves -69.8534- 100.82%
11Justin Wilson -69.8550- 100.82%
12Oriol Servia69.9073- 100.90%
13Marco Andretti -69.9400- 100.95%
14Vitor Meira -70.1010- 101.18%
15Sebastian Saavedra -70.1146- 101.20%
16E.J. Viso -70.1465- 101.24%
17Raphael Matos -70.3477- 101.53%
18Graham Rahal -70.5883- 101.88%
19Simona de Silvestro -70.6407- 101.96%
20Danica Patrick -70.7836- 102.16%
21Sebastien Bourdais -70.8050- 102.19%
22Takuma Sato -70.8197- 102.22%
23James Jakes -70.8592- 102.27%
24Charlie Kimball -70.8672- 102.28%
25Paul Tracy -71.0249- 102.51%
26Ana Beatriz -71.0341- 102.53%
27J.R. Hildebrand -71.4916- 103.19%

Hildebrand in 27th was closer to Power than Sullivan in 9th was closer to Mario. People want greater differences in speeds that is brought about by technical diversity. Well we have that with Lotus being slower in Honda and Chevrolet, so what does everyone do? Bag on Lotus for being slow which could lead to them leaving the sport added on top of Lotus' current global financial difficulties, and then everyone is so close again only having Honda or Chevy as engine choice, which will again lead to everyone complaining they want greater differences in speed.

[HJJ]

All Chevy teams have to replace their engines. Do they all lose 10 grid places?

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...or-long-beach/

[Maelochs]

I am sure Honda and Lotus will insist that all Chevy-powered cars get a 10-spot penalty---after all, it was Chevy, Lotus, and Honda who wrote the rule.

More horsepower, better mileage, two poles, two wins ... oops, forgot reliability.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

That's going further than NASCAR's Lucky Dog Rule.

Doesn't NASCAR also have some kind of 'wave around' rule for lapped cars that forego a pit stop under caution? Can anyone enlighten me?

[Purist]

Yes, NASCAR has the "wave-around" in place.

I've already spoken on this; I don't care for the "lucky dog", but the "wave-around" seems fine to me, especially as long as they're packing the field up behind the pace car under caution.

With the long "straight" at Long Beach and Sao Paulo, I hope there will be at least some drag trimmed out of the cars compared to the first two races. It might hurt a bit in qualifying, but if you can have a real straight-line advantage in the race, that lower grid position isn't going to matter much. Getting cleanly by on the straights doesn't leave the other guy much recourse to get you back.

[Catingaround]

Originally Posted by HJJ

All Chevy teams have to replace their engines. Do they all lose 10 grid places?

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...or-long-beach/

Sounds like it, what a disaster, they may need to revisit this rule. On the bright side.. Go Simon Pagenaud!

[Purist]

So, can Bourdais now pull off a top 5 this weekend?

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

especially on road courses, you'll hardly ever see a person gain a lap back on merit by passing the leader, but we should at least provide for the opportunity.

As Flyin Ryan says, If lose lose a lap on a 1-minute circuit, you would never get it back. Except a rule where you get a free pass.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

People want greater differences in speeds that is brought about by technical diversity.

There's another way to reach that: to provide cars so fast that only the talented and fearless can drive them fast.

[Purist]

Marco was fastest in the damp first session. They credit him with a 1:17.1 or so, but I could have sworn I saw a 1:16.6 on the timing sheet. I'm guessing the yellow/red came out on his fast lap, and so it was stricken from the record.

Practice 2 was hopelessly inundated, with Franchitt managing a 2:05, and his teammate, who was the only other driver to go out, took the nose off of his car against the concrete.

Hopefully the lack of dry running bodes well for the race, with a lot of the field being on set-ups that are far from ideal.

[DanicaFan]

These penalties are an absolute joke. None of these engine changes were made after qualifying, practicing, or even during a race. And I thought NASCAR was bad...lol

These engine problems were completely out of the driver's hands. Until the engine manufacturers get these engines finely tuned and figured out, they should not penalize these drivers. Engine malfunction was an expected probablilty for this new season so why these infractions.

Just plain makes no sense to me. I think Indycar is dumb for doing this. I dont care what Rule 15 says...

[DanicaFan]

These penalties are an absolute joke. None of these engine changes were made after qualifying, practicing, or even during a race. And I thought NASCAR was bad...lol

These engine problems were completely out of the driver's hands. Until the engine manufacturers get these engines finely tuned and figured out, they should not penalize these drivers. Engine malfunction was an expected probablilty for this new season so why these infractions ?

Just plain makes no sense to me. I think Indycar is dumb for doing this. I dont care what Rule 15 says...

[Yannick]

DanicaFan, I agree.