A way to save GT1

[notguilty]

the GT1 class is on course to being phased out very soon. So my idea was is there a way to convert GT2 cars into GT1. Converting a few 911's or 430's might be they only way to save the class. PSI deveopled a GT1 porsche for they LMS a couple of years with a little succes if my memory is correct so why not have the factories come up with an upgrade kit for there customers. just a thought.

[Adam43]

I think that this may attract a lot of GT1 isn't dead (see Le Mans), or it is dead (see ALMS), or some other stuff (see FIA GT!).

Are you suggesting that GT1 cars shouldbe based on GT1, but with more upgrades?

Sort of related the ACO are suggestion that they want to make GT2 cars cheaper and simpler in the future.

Welcome to 10-10ths

[Satorian]

I don't know where all this GT1 banshee wailing comes from. We have a strong DBR9 field, C6Rs, revived Saleens, a maturing Murcielago, the still strong MC12 and the odd F550 around. Additionally, we might get a Koenigsegg soon.

Besides, turning a GT2 into a GT1 is a task somewhere between prohibitively expensive and impossible in my estimation.



But, as I'm most excited about GT3, I expect it to grow even more in future years, gain more different cars and become quicker as the cars evolve. As far as I am concerned, the future of GT racing looks quite alright.

[Speed-King]

I wonder how the new Coupé-class rules will look like when they finally come out. And I wonder if a current GT1 could be upgraded and at the same time fit into the new coupé class.
It would be really cool if some of the current GT1s(including MC12s) morphed into todays version of the late IMSA 935 Porsches with all sorts of cool additional aero parts, less weight and even more power due to bigger restrictors!

Yeah, I know probably only wishfull thinking...

[dj4monie]

Smacks of an un-informed fan...

We have been through that already, it was the original GT2 class.

Go search BPR Series on Wikipedia

GT2 cars became GT1 cars when the FIA killed the FIA GT Championship, see Wiki for information.

What used to be GT3 cars became the new GT2 class in the new FIA GT Championship, see Wikipedia

Your suggestions are off base my friend.

The GT1 class is fine, the problem is the Corvette Racing factory team vs largely private entries. Aston Martin is strictly a Prodrive thing, they never got any money from Ford to run the cars. Saleens are run by the European dealer of Saleen S7R cars which is Orcea.

These are not equal factory efforts battling GM.

Aston was owed by La Sarthe and she gave them a victory.

In Europe GT1 is fine

In the States, people are either -

In NASCAR

Fumbling around with the IRL or what used ot be know as CART

or worst spending money in Grand Am

Until motorsports comes to its senses, the GT1 class will struggle a bit. But we basically need more ACO legal options. Right now only 2 cars are competitive in GT1 under ACO rules.

You need at least 3 and the Corvette doesn't count because you are getting a USED car from the boys are P&M.

Until we have 3 choices for chassis, then it will struggle.

[Fogelhund]

FIA GT and Le Mans may have decent grids, but the reality is that the current rendition of GT1 is dying a slow death. Like the GT1 before it, it has become a bit too expensive, and car counts across all series are disappearing.

Witness the elimination of the class in multiple National Series, and the current low numbers in the ALMS. Overall, if you did a GT1 car count, for cars running this year, you will find that the numbers are reduced from prior years.

It is rather inevitable that class regeneration happens with the GT categories. The ACO has already made statements regarding the GT category.

The ACO wants to reduce the costs in all classes, but it is still paying particular attention to the GT classes, where it believes that technology is making costs too high.

"We want to reduce costs in GT2 in particular," Poissenot added. "We want to make their performance closer to road cars, and it is essential to reduce the costs, particularly regarding electronics."

I can't find evidence that will be phased out "soon", but eventually GT1 will be phased out, as (current) GT2 and GT3 become the new GT1 and GT2 for the ACO. It is ironic that one would point to history, and ignore it's teachings all at once.

While the GT3 cars aren't quite as race prepped as I'd like GT cars to look, there is a large number of cars, that are very diverse and interesting.... make no mistake, change is coming.

[ss_collins]

With GT2 becoming GT3 I can see GT1 becoming GT2

[ThePenguin]

In 2010 when the new rules go into effect won't the GT1 class get killed off?

[paul-collins]

I want a GT category where a 2L motor is competitive!

... and, no, not for my Neon.

[Speed-King]

yeah, would be cool to see the return of the turbos for GT cars...

[broadrun96]

Yeah, would be nice to see turbo cars, might entice Porsche to add to another class, mixing it up with the current GTs. But would like to see some of the costs coming down so its not just the Vette and then privateers. Decreased costs could also bring in some of the new Asian cars, in either GT1 or 2, see the still-born G35 project and with Lexus/Toyota and Honda/Acura bringing out their new ones the class could explode in the future. Yes, the rose-colored glasses are on but trying to be the one voice of optimism in here.

[Satorian]

The new Lister GT1, which seems to be on hold for now, was supposed to be a 4 litre turbo engine.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Yeah, would be nice to see turbo cars, might entice Porsche to add to another class, mixing it up with the current GTs. But would like to see some of the costs coming down so its not just the Vette and then privateers. Decreased costs could also bring in some of the new Asian cars, in either GT1 or 2, see the still-born G35 project and with Lexus/Toyota and Honda/Acura bringing out their new ones the class could explode in the future. Yes, the rose-colored glasses are on but trying to be the one voice of optimism in here.

I want to see GT classes truly based on production cars: if the tranny is not in the street car, it is not in the races; RPO spoilers only; stock or removed rocker panels; NO DAMN RESTRICTORS;allow fender flares but no wide body cars etc., etc.
Instead turning neurtered GT classes into supposed top GT classes, bring back the old Grp. 4 rules where big and little engines ran against each other with weight to displacement, but the fuel efficiency of the little cars, played off against the brute power of the big cars.

The coupe p rules may work out, but in racing two years is an eternity; create a super mod. GT class. Weight to engine type and other than that turn them loose. The boys with the biggest cajones win.
Bob

[The359]

Originally Posted by Satorian

The new Lister GT1, which seems to be on hold for now, was supposed to be a 4 litre turbo engine.

Engine from who? I seem to remember Lister announcing it was modified from an existing car, but we never really found out before the project disappeared.

[Purist]

Bob, what exactly qualifies as "wide-bodied", which would not be allowed in your rules? The road-going Jaguar XJ220 was 7 feet wide. You'd end up with the problem of low and wide production supercars coming in.

Another thing, you'd have SERIOUS aero issues I suspect with your rules. What exactly are RPO spoilers anyway? And another point, the power from an unrestricted engine would, at some point, demand undertray tunnels and a real wing to make the car adequately stable at high speed.

Frankly, I rather like that classes as they are. GT2 is pretty sane, and I don't know how much simpler/cheaper you can get than a modified off-the-shelf race car (the Porsche 911 GT3). A GT3 Cup or FIA GT3 type car would be dangerously slow compared to the prototypes, and anyway, this is GT, not TC. I have no desire to see such slow, mundane-looking cars as the new GT3s in ALMS, LMS, or at Le Mans. GTs are RACE cars, NOT road cars.

GT1 allows for the wild exotics and silhouette cars. If you really pegged back the top GT category, you wouldn't even see those cars (Saleen, Lambo, etc), because it would be ludicrous how much you'd have to detune them from production trim; the top supercars already make 600+hp on the road, and some have pretty serious aero to begin with. Would you allow a GT1 version of the Maserati MC12 Corsa or Ferrari Enzo FXX in under your proposed rules, Bob?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Satorian

I don't know where all this GT1 banshee wailing comes from. We have a strong DBR9 field, C6Rs, revived Saleens, a maturing Murcielago, the still strong MC12 and the odd F550 around. Additionally, we might get a Koenigsegg soon.

Besides, turning a GT2 into a GT1 is a task somewhere between prohibitively expensive and impossible in my estimation.



But, as I'm most excited about GT3, I expect it to grow even more in future years, gain more different cars and become quicker as the cars evolve. As far as I am concerned, the future of GT racing looks quite alright.

I would agree with most of your thoughts!

What I am most curious about is, if they dumb down GT( electronic costs) as a whole what are they going to do with the Protos? There is already a large disparity in speed between GT-2 and P-1. So if they slow down the GT-2s are they going to slow down the Protos or are they going to let the GTs maintain their current pace but take away systems that allow them to function at that pace safely??

L.P.

[ss_collins]

lmp1s will be slowed using aero mods, p2 will be slowed too

[SALEEN S7R]

GT1 grids dying? I think not. Look at this weekends FIA GT line up for example, there is 13 GT1 cars entered and a further 6 GT1 Citation cup cars, some of which are competitve with the regular GT1 runners. Added to that there is a further 11 GT2 cars entered for the Monza race giving a very healthy grid of 24 regular Championship cars, 30 when you include the Citation cup machines.

In the LMS GT1 is reasonably healthy now too, for the Nurburgring 1000km there are 8 cars entered in GT1 which is pretty healthy for the LMS. That combined with the FIA GT grid gives a total of 21 GT1 cars racing in Europe's 2 main Championships, 27 if you count the Citation cup cars and that is before you start looking at the grids in FFSA. How anyone can say that 27 GT1 cars racing in Europes 2 main sportscar series is signs of a class that is dying I do not know. Only in North America is the GT1 class struggling, and in the JLMC too, but then the GT2 class is also struggling in the JLMC.

If you want to look at a class that isnt as healthy as it was though in Europe look at GT2. 16 cars in the LMS for the Nurburgring 1000km and only 11 GT2 cars in FIA GT. And this cheaper class is supposed to be better represented than the "dying" GT1 class. GT1 Isnt going anywhere I feel.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

GT1 grids dying? I think not. Look at this weekends FIA GT line up for example, there is 13 GT1 cars entered and a further 6 GT1 Citation cup cars, some of which are competitve with the regular GT1 runners. Added to that there is a further 11 GT2 cars entered for the Monza race giving a very healthy grid of 24 regular Championship cars, 30 when you include the Citation cup machines.

In the LMS GT1 is reasonably healthy now too, for the Nurburgring 1000km there are 8 cars entered in GT1 which is pretty healthy for the LMS. That combined with the FIA GT grid gives a total of 21 GT1 cars racing in Europe's 2 main Championships, 27 if you count the Citation cup cars and that is before you start looking at the grids in FFSA. How anyone can say that 27 GT1 cars racing in Europes 2 main sportscar series is signs of a class that is dying I do not know. Only in North America is the GT1 class struggling, and in the JLMC too, but then the GT2 class is also struggling in the JLMC.

You can scratch the Golden Time Ferrari from the Nürburgring entry list, I think, as the list is still the list of all the season entries.
GT1s main problem is the lack of new cars. The newest current GT1 car is the Aston Martin which is now in its third year of competition. I know, there's the Koenigsegg on the horizon, but I'm not sure if we'll ever see this car in a real race. And even if it does: Will it be an affordable car for customers and at the same time reliable and competitive?!

If you want to look at a class that isnt as healthy as it was though in Europe look at GT2. 16 cars in the LMS for the Nurburgring 1000km and only 11 GT2 cars in FIA GT. And this cheaper class is supposed to be better represented than the "dying" GT1 class. GT1 Isnt going anywhere I feel.

Yeah, but there's huge numbers of F430s, 997GT3RSRs in the Spanish and Italian championships and in the GT-Open...
And RE FFSA-GT: most of the grid are still old Vipers that wouldn't be competitive under the current rules in GT1 elsewhere. IIRC FFSA GT has only four Saleens, two or three Vettes and one lone Aston. So that's about eight "new" GT1s...

While GT1 at Le Mans was easily the best class in the race, I fear that this might have been the last big hurrah of the GT1s. Without an influx of new cars the future of GT1 is very uncertain.

[PorscheFanNo1]

I still cant really see the point of why the 2 biggest Sportscar series in Europe decides to run at the same regs wich are taking runners away from each other! Thinking GT1 and GT2 in LMS and FIA-GT. Why isnt LMS a Prototype serie ONLY? Looking back at history the 80s WEC/WSC was basicly only prototypes, wich is the serie they had in mind when they created ELMS a few years ago. Arent we starting to get so many any good LMP1 and LMP2 cars in Europe the they dont need the GT cars to fill the gaps anymore? Let the GT cars run in FIA-GT only, wich are suggested to be a World serie but the lack of support from the too few teams turned it down, I really think that would gain both series in the long term, and FIA-GT in the short term too. It would bring more professionalism to both series, if you ask me. Let the Endurace boys have its fun in LMS running privateers LMP1 and LMP2 cars wich arent really anymore expensive then a GT1 car, and then lets the ones who want to run GT1 and GT2 cars run in FIA-GT. Some of the current GT runners in LMS would go over to FIA-GT, goining them, and some would sell their cars to FIA-GT runners and instead buy a LMP1 or LMP2 chassie to run in LMS, goining both series! Isnt that what be all want? More GT1 cars in FIA-GT and more LMPs in LMS? Who actually cares about GT1 and GT2 in LMS? I DONT!!!

[Speed-King]

We had a Prototype only series in the late 90s/early 2000s in the Sportsracing World Cup/FIA Sportscar Championship and while starting out strong it ended with very small grids of only 8 cars or somethinglike that...
Also note that a lot of the GT teams in LMS have one or more gentleman driver in the cockpit. In a 6hr race a pay driver can get up to two hours of racing and if his professional codrivers are quick can still have a shot at a good result, whereas he would get less seat time and a smaller chance for a good result in the 2hr sprint format of todays FIA GT.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Well isnt that why we have Citation Cup?

[Speed-King]

The Citation Cup is a nice idea, but still it provides only one hour of race time for each driver compared to the two hours in LMS. And while a gentleman driver in LMS can go for a true class podium in LMS, all he can win in FIA GT is the Citation cup, which IMHO has just the standing of a club racing series incorporated into the FIA GT races.

[PorscheFanNo1]

That might be true, atleast they have it running and now they just need to work on it to make it better for next year. But who said the gentlemendrivers in GT1-LMS cant still be gentlemendrivers in LMP2-LMS? Just buy a 2nd hand RS Spyder from any of the current teams in ALMS and run it next year in LMS and you have a cheap and wellproven car that can win races?

Still, my point is, Europe doenst need 2 big series that are compeating gainst each other, use 2 different set of regs (Prototypes and GT) and both will be stronger, dont you think?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Still, my point is, Europe doenst need 2 big series that are compeating gainst each other, use 2 different set of regs (Prototypes and GT) and both will be stronger, dont you think?

I think LMS and FIA GT are two vastly different series that give the GT teams the possibility to decide which series and which business model are best for them. Whereas LMS leans towards paydrivers, long seat time and cost contaiment due to having only few events and consequently smaller expenses on traveling, accomodation and so on, FIA GT is on its way to become some kind of DTM for GTs with good television contracts, (hopefully) spectacular sprint races, enough races to ensure spectator awareness over the course of the season and outside of the CC almost exclusively professional race drivers.

As I said before: GT1 is not in trouble right now, but the future is uncertain due to a lack of new cars coming up. Right now both series can coexist very well.