Production BMW Cup 2008: Ver1.2

[johnw]

As reported in Motorsport News today-
A great initiative from the beemers racers, organising their own series for 2008 and racing with the new Toyo Tyres Racing Saloons to enable them to field full grids and provide much better vfm for their drivers.

[Kaiser the dog]

Sounds like great news. After two fun years with the beemers I was thinking about selling up and trying something different, but the prospect of cheaper race entries and a great calender have persuaded me to stick around for 2008 and maybe beyond.

The new Toyo Tyres Series will hopefully provide the option of one (or two) more races at a meeting for a 'competitive' entry fee, thus giving better value for money than over the last two years.

Roll on 2008.

[Tim Falce]

Sounds good John, do you have a calendar for 2008 set up yet?

[johnw]

The provisional 2008 Calendar is here
TTRS refers to Toyo Tires Racing Saloons who will share a number of meetings with the PBMW Cup

March
24th Castle Combe. PBMW Round 1. TTRS Round 1
April
26th-27th Brands Hatch Indy. PBMW Rounds 2 & 3, TTRS Rounds 2 & 3.
May
10th & 11th Cadwell Park. PBMW Rounds 4 & 5. TTRS Rounds 4 & 5.
June
7th Rockingham. PBMW Round 6. TTRS Round 6.
14th Brands Hatch Indy. TTRS Rounds 7 & 8.
28th & 29th Lydden Hill. PBMW Rounds 7 & 8
July
19th Snetterton. PBMW Round 9. TTRS Round 9.
September
19th & 20th Silverstone GP. PBMW & TTRS combined
November
1st Donington. PBMW Rounds 10 & 11. TTRS Rounds 10 & 11

[BMracer]

Seems interesting John. Thinking of having a go but I have some concerns. If this is not under BARC or whoever how do the finances work? Guess you are buying races/grid slots and then relying on a good entry for your cost reduction plan. If so I have some questions.

1. Who is standing behind this financially? I guess it can't be SELOC. The circuits must have some guarantee? Who is the Father Christmas?
2. What happens if something goes wrong. If I am a member of a club is there any possibility of me picking up a share of an un-paid debt.
3. Any news on the entry fees? Hope you will allow for the insurance and VAT in your calcs. Don't want any nasty surprises and find you coming back for more money.

No point in getting all excited if its not financially safe and secure. Both for BMW and the Toyo Series.

Chris

[carrera]

Is this TTRS the new name for Pre 93?

[Stacy]

The CTCRC are still running their Pre-93 championship, but most of the cars will be moving to TTRS I understand. TTRS is for, er, Pre-94 according to the regs I saw..

S.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by carrera

Is this TTRS the new name for Pre 93?

I believe that the Toyo Tires Series is seperate from the CTCRC, who will continue to organising their Pre 1993 competition.

[johnw]

BMracer
How do you sleep at night with all these worries
1 Give me a call for the details.
2 No need to worry about drivers losing money.
3 You'll have to wait for the entry fees, but be asured that they will be attractive

Best you don't get excited, let the rest of us do that

[BMracer]

Come on JW, none of this dodgy handshake, roll up your trouser leg stuff. You have gone public with your plans and thats where questions must be answered. If you are cutting the BRSCC's and BARC's of this world out of the deal then who is putting up the scratch? It's a reasonable question. If its Masters or whoever we know they have the capital. Come on, else we will think you have something to hide.

Chris

[juliann]

Originally Posted by BMracer

Come on JW, none of this dodgy handshake, roll up your trouser leg stuff. You have gone public with your plans and thats where questions must be answered. If you are cutting the BRSCC's and BARC's of this world out of the deal then who is putting up the scratch? It's a reasonable question. If its Masters or whoever we know they have the capital. Come on, else we will think you have something to hide.

Chris

I'm underwriting it. Not that it's anyone's business as the risk is mine, not yours. Why am I doing it ? Because I'm passionate about it, because enough racers want it to be, because something needs to change, because it can be changed, because in this world of escalating costs lets buck the trend, etc.. etc...

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by BMracer

Come on, else we will think you have something to hide.
Chris

Hi Chris,

Haven't seen you on the PBMW forum, and it looks like you're new to 10/10ths this evening too - welcome to the forum, care to intro yourself?

Stacy

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by johnw

The provisional 2008 Calendar is here
TTRS refers to Toyo Tires Racing Saloons who will share a number of meetings with the PBMW Cup

September
19th & 20th Silverstone GP. PBMW & TTRS combined

Well done John. That would be the Britcar 24hr support race, which makes it a fairly busy day for me! At least by Sunday afternoon I should know my way round..

Might have to squeeze in another couple of Curly Wurlies for energy..

S.

[Jimmy C]

Technical Regulations for those that are interested in some great cheap racing

The TTRS technical regulations can be found HERE, all drivers that have shown an interest to date have been emailed the password.

If you're interested in the series and would like to be added to the mailing list, and receive the password please email info@pbmwc.co.uk

[Victor Meldrew]

This TTRS series sounds a great initiative. If the entry is as eclectic as the Meldrew at Brands earlier this month then should make for great racing and spectating

[pdd144c]

There is a lot of talk about cheap prices, so how much will they be?! If you are saying they will be cheap you must know how much they are, otherwise you wouldn’t be publicising the fact on a public forum! Please don't keep us in the dark and tell us.

[Woolley]

A question, then. There was one series, and now there's two? (or is it two becomes three? I've sort of lost track somewhere.) I understand that people want to do their own thing, and I'm really not interested in the whys and wherefores behind it, but the assumption I'm getting is that it's OK as it's just you.

May I remind you that it's not. In order to race these several series, you're going to want marshals, and you're going to need to persuade us that we want to be there. This is more track time, that's going to be taken up, and there's fewer and fewer of us to support it. One of the main reasons is too many meetings with too many races consisting of not enough cars resulting in dull racing. And the existing series was, on my experience of last year, one of the more enjoyable. Seems a huge risk that this year it's going to be another two of the less enjoyable.

Unless someone can prove different...?

[chezza]

Well said Woolley.

[Alan Cherry]

Originally Posted by Woolley

May I remind you that it's not. In order to race these several series, you're going to want marshals, and you're going to need to persuade us that we want to be there. ...?

Going off at a tangent (if I'm allowed) re Marshals wanting to be there- I was at the 'ring (GP Circuit) in October - saturday events ran from 08:00 until 18:00 and sunday from 09:00 until 18:00 with no lunch breaks.
Do they have a different system for marshals there with rotation/shifts or something - do they treat them differently ?- I noticed quite a few had proper huts to keep out of the weather etc.
Now you could bring entry fees down if you could squeeze that many races into a day in the uk, but you'd have to make it attractive to the marshals.
p.s. there was a 5 minute time slot between events, and according to the digital clock over the startline, my event started within seconds of it's scheduled time, although they have service roads everywhere, and cars are recovered during the event - I believe brands has a licence to do this now.

[Austinspace75]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I'm really not interested in the whys and wherefores behind it...

...Unless someone can prove different...?

I'm not sure that these 2 statements are compatible so I'm not sure that anyone could 'prove different' without going into quite alot of detail about the 'whys and wherefores'

However, its a fair point - Marshalls are not really considered in changes such as this one (as far as I am aware).
But, with all (very much) due respect to them, I feel that there were bigger issues to be addressed and they had to take priority over such considerations. After all, without the cars and drivers (and changes that should ultimately KEEP people racing who might otherwise have quit AND attract new people to the sport) the marshalls wouldn't be needed at all, because the racing wouldn't be there. Sometimes, like it or not, change is for the better. In regards to this particular change, for those not confident about its success, only time will give them an answer (proof). For those confident in its success, there is no argument.... they wouldn't have put in the work if they had these doubts.

How many successful series/championships WEREN'T formed by some sort of 'breakaway' section of another group? (even though I really don't think that term applies here)

[Victor Meldrew]

Originally Posted by Woolley

A question, then. There was one series, and now there's two? (or is it two becomes three? I've sort of lost track somewhere.) I understand that people want to do their own thing, and I'm really not interested in the whys and wherefores behind it, but the assumption I'm getting is that it's OK as it's just you.

May I remind you that it's not. In order to race these several series, you're going to want marshals, and you're going to need to persuade us that we want to be there. This is more track time, that's going to be taken up, and there's fewer and fewer of us to support it. One of the main reasons is too many meetings with too many races consisting of not enough cars resulting in dull racing. And the existing series was, on my experience of last year, one of the more enjoyable. Seems a huge risk that this year it's going to be another two of the less enjoyable.

Unless someone can prove different...?

An interesting argument however not one I subscribe to.

This initiative would appear to be challenging a longstanding status quo and some long held beliefs in some quarters that the drivers will pretty much accept things as they are; because that's the way they've always been done. In doing so, it would appear to have ruffled a few feathers......not in itself an unhealthy thing I wouldn't have thought?

It does after all, introduce an element of choice that perhaps didn't exist previously and for that it must be congratulated.

It would seem to be a logical view that it is the responsibility of the organising clubs and individual racing clubs to try to attract drivers to compete in their Series and Championships.

But one thing I do agree on is that poorly subscribed Series & Championships should be axed / amalgamated as part of the natural culling and selection that occurs - no-one wants to see pathetic grids of a handful of cars - apart from the financial implications of cross-subsidy, the primary consideration should surely be for the show which is put on for the paying spectators?

Will be interesting to re-visit this thread around this time next year.......


ps. hope none of above violates my parole (this is a smilie free zone)

[chezza]

I am sorry but I have to disgree with you.

Yes thinking outside the box is great...DMN thinks outside the box and we have ruffled feathers too in the past with the way we do things and keep our prices low and we are populare because of that, but at the same time there was a gap in the market when DMN started and it has taken a hell of a lot of hard work to get it where it is today.

Yes it is up to the clubs and championships to get drivers into their championships BUT there are only a limited amount of drivers in a sport that is getting more and more expensive by the day that are being spread among many different championships and series. By taking 2 championships and making it 3 or whatever it is that you are doing you are diluting the grids and making the situation worse.

Yes you should be putting on a show for the spectators, when a club meeting actually gets any (I bet most people watching at a club meeting are family members, friends and sponsors). But at the same time Woolley had a valid point over marshals. If you get a reputation as having poor grids with poor racing marshals aren't going to favour your meetings/meetings you are appearing at and without enough marshals meetings will be cancelled.

Also to pick up on another point raise previously...you say you are cheap...what kind of entry fees are you offering?

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew

This initiative would appear to be challenging a longstanding status quo and some long held beliefs in some quarters that the drivers will pretty much accept things as they are; because that's the way they've always been done. In doing so, it would appear to have ruffled a few feathers......not in itself an unhealthy thing I wouldn't have thought?

I don't understand this, I thought pre-93 only began last season and the impression I got from being within the CTCRC was that it was very much a blank canvass throughout the season and plans were (and have been) afoot for season end, hence why it now has MSA approval?

O/T I personally think it's crazy to have these two championships start up "relatively" together (especially on the same race-cards too!!) and see absoloutely no valid reason for it, even if it is the sake of £20 on an entry fee.

[Charger500]

Originally Posted by chezza

Competition is great, but I'm with Al on this one. You're diluting grids, especially if your running at the same meeting, people will do one or the other, not both.

I cant' agree with you there... I'm not sure who you're speaking for... I didn't know CTCRC Pre-93 would be racing at Combe, the same event as PBMW & TTRS... that's great now I have 3 races to enter... how is that diluting grid sizes, I've just been offered an opportunity to race 3 times on the same day???

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by chezza

BUT there are only a limited amount of drivers in a sport that is getting more and more expensive by the day that are being spread among many different championships and series.

Hi,

I do think things will shake out one way or the other pretty quickly in this regard. While the costs aims are laudable (and it is after all "at cost" so I'm less bothered about finding out the specific fees in the knowledge that it /will/ be as "cheap as possible"), the decision making process also encompasses the breadth and depth of a given grid.

TTRS affords me the opportunity to race competitively with known drivers who I have a lot of time for and at a very close pace. This is the biggest driver to me and my presence would be dependant on that, so no cars and drivers pushing me on, no series and no Stacy.

In line with this I am scouting around for other opportunities giving me the same, to supplement my calendar in 08 and don't believe I am alone in that being the most significant driver. Although I do appreciate those driven purely by cost, and social circles. These are bonus' for me, not deal breakers.

Consequently those who have the best product (meeting whatever the main attraction is to each driver) will attract cars and gain strength in a virtuous spiral, those who do not have a good product will die and the remnants will fall to the stronger series. I don't expect that process in this example to take longer than 12months - maybe even less?

So maybe we should hold fire on those discussions and resume them in a year to see where we are with full knowledge of who's product was best after all. Until then, as a racer I'd rather be given the choice.

S.