ADAC Procar 2008

[Speed-King]

The first race weekend is over, with victories for Romanov (BMW 320 E46) and Geibel (Toyota Corolla). The ex-STCC-Mercedes finished third in both races and the Rikli Accord 2nd in race 2.

Full results can be found here: http://www.adac-procar.de/default.as...nen1&strecke=4

Grid looks quite ok with 23 cars, however there are only 2 cars in the (Diesel-) division 3 and a number of Renault Clio RSIII in Division 1. The Clios have yet to become competitive, as they were slower than the div.2 cars in race 1. They fared better in the 2nd race, but were still quite a bit off the pace of the leaders. I hope the Clios will become competitive, as the series needs every car it can get.

You can watch videos from the weekend (training and races) here:
http://www.adac-procar.de/default.as...nen1&strecke=4

Commentary is in German, though.

[Ellmau]

I really don't like the 'different classes' in 'one touring car' race concept. It reminds me of the last year(s?) of the DTCC, when they had the BMW 316's to race with the bigger Touring Cars, just to have a decent grid.

For a country like germany it should be possible to get a decent S2000 grid. Even in Sweden and Denmark they can pull it off.

[duke_toaster]

DTM. That's what is killing procar. Let's hope DTM dies quickly and they all go to the series with proper touring cars in Germany ...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Ellmau

I really don't like the 'different classes' in 'one touring car' race concept. It reminds me of the last year(s?) of the DTCC, when they had the BMW 316's to race with the bigger Touring Cars, just to have a decent grid.

I don't mind it in touring car endurance races (if the number of classes is reasonable) but it's kinda silly in sprint races.

[Ellmau]

I don't know if it can all blamed on the existence of DTM. It's a totally different league of Touring Car racing. Ofcourse, because there is DTM in germany, their is less interest among the crowd to go to the track, but Germany is big country, so nevertheless it's still a good alternative for teams that want to compete in touring cars, but don't have a huge budget.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Ellmau

but Germany is big country

Only a third more than Britain (population wise)

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Only a third more than Britain (population wise)

Germany has 5 proper racing circuits, Great Britain has how many? 20?

That tells you quite a lot about the attitudes towards less-than-top-level racing. In Germany all that counts is F1 and DTM, everything else no one cares about. Maybe the 24hrs at the Ring, but that's one race and largely a regional phenomenon.

Germany had its own Group C championship in the 80s and later a strong STW and DTM at the same time, but nowadays it's really just F1 and DTM that counts. Dankeschön, Herr Schumacher...

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Germany has 5 proper racing circuits, Great Britain has how many? 20?

Well, in the UK we have ...

Nine tracks that host BTCC
One that hosted British GT and F3 in the past few years but is probably incapable of doing it now (Castle Combe)
Two that host British Superbikes, but it would be a push to have BTCC there (Cadwell Park and Mallory Park).

And there's Mondello Park in Ireland, but only BSB do that "flyaway".

That tells you quite a lot about the attitudes towards less-than-top-level racing. In Germany all that counts is F1 and DTM, everything else no one cares about. Maybe the 24hrs at the Ring, but that's one race and largely a regional phenomenon.

Well, over here the only thing that gets a real word in edgeways on four wheels here is F1. MotoGP gets an occasional mention, BTCC gets live free to air TV (on Freeview) but it's a bit ignored by the general media.

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Only a third more than Britain (population wise)

Does that include Wales, Scotland and N-IE?

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Dankeschön, Herr Schumacher...

Ah, so it's Schumacher's fault the Procar is not popular enough

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Ellmau

Does that include Wales, Scotland and N-IE?

Yes.

[Speed-King]

Maybe a classical case of the grass being greener on the other side, but to me there seems to be much more of a "motorsport culture" in Great Britain than in Germany.

I have to go now, I could on quite a bit about that subject, maybe I'll do tonight...

[Ellmau]

I think you are right GB has more motorsport culture than Germany, but I think Germany still has quite a big motorsport culture, probably much bigger than France, Danmark, Sweden e.g.

GB probably has the biggest motorsport culture of the entire world, so I don't think that's a good reference for Germany.

[stedevil]

The "problem" probably is the powerhouse marketing of DTM, it steals all the focus and a small budget series just can't reach out. So the best would probably be to run a proper TC series as support races to the DTM whenever possible and hope some of the crowd comes also on the events not coupled with DTM.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Ellmau

I think you are right GB has more motorsport culture than Germany, but I think Germany still has quite a big motorsport culture, probably much bigger than France, Danmark, Sweden e.g.

Hmm, not sure about Danmark and Sweden, but France - has while not much on the Touring car side - several different Sportscar series(FFSA GT, VdeV Proto and GT) and of course Le Mans.
Benelux probably comes closest to Great Britain in terms of motorsport culture with many great series like Belcar (not so much nowadays, though), BTCS, Dutch Supercar(that's in fact two series), Dunlop Endurance, BLR V6, and a number of small ovals.

Ah, so it's Schumacher's fault the Procar is not popular enough

Yup. Not directly, but I blame the Schumi-hype for the shape German motorsports is in nowadays. I remember the days when the Tourenwagen-Challenge (now Procar) races were televised live and free to air along V8STAR and highlight packages of a lot of one make series. All that seemed to end somewhere around 2000 or 2002, i.e. when Schumi started to really dominate with Ferrari (and DTM came back).

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Benelux probably comes closest to Great Britain in terms of motorsport culture with many great series like Belcar (not so much nowadays, though), BTCS, Dutch Supercar(that's in fact two series), Dunlop Endurance, BLR V6, and a number of small ovals.

I don't know about Belgium, but the Netherlands has absolutely no motorsport culture whatsoever. The DSC, BRL V6, the Touring Car Diesel cup and other "high quality" racing series from the Netherlands are a complete joke. It was much better before 2000, when the DTCC was still alive, and people like Allard Kalff, Tom Coronel and Duncan Huisman drove in it.

[werner]

The Dutch have *coff, coff* a Motorsportsculture that comes close to the Britisch??? Eh, no, not at all. It's not bad, there are enough people interested to organize nice events, but that's it. The organizers of rally's and the owners of (the only 2) circuits in NL have huge problems to keep their events going because of the complaints that locals always have. That's difficult for them, since the Dutch are possibly the best complainers in the world. No wonder that the Dutch Supercar Challenge has only 2 races in the Netherlands!
In Belgium it is probably a bit better, partly because of a bit more interest of the population (national racing gets some attention in the mainstream-media, instead of only the specialist-media in Holland), partly because in Belgium people don't complain when an event is held that causes some disturbance. The Belgian GT-series is OK, the rally-scene used to be fantastic, but is now a bit down, at least if you look at the material and the proffessionalism.
The reason you might think that Motorsport is big in NL is because all the people in Orange shirts when a Dutchman is performing well in some international series. Well, thats probably partly just because when we have a chance to dress in orange and drink a lot of beer, there is not much that will stop us. Even if we don't care for the sport that's going on.

[Speed-King]

The impression I get is that Benelux, while lacking a top-tier series like DTM has a great diversity of semi-professional series, while in Germany it's either DTM or just club racing. ADAC-GT is changing that a bit now, but that's still a very new series and one will see what will become of it.

I'm really looking forward to DSC at Hockenheim, maybe I'll change my opinion afterwards.

As I said before, probably just another case of the grass being greener on the other side...

[werner]

The DSC is a great spectacle in some perspectives: There are a lot of cars, from several different makes and sorts, and some of them are very fast, loud and expensive. OTOH, all the drivers are amateurs, who have to pay themselves for any damage. So they lack the ability and the will to have good fights or good performances.