Are the Honda executives idiots?

[karimbo]

Are the Honda executives idiots? The were willing to throw hundreds of millions of dollars at Craig Pollock and Jacques Villeneuve for years, and then, they decided to quit when Ross "Genius" Brawn was designing his first car for them. Talk about a great marketing move!!

Don't tell me that the economic crisis has anything to do with this, if Mercedes, Ferrari or Toyota can supply more than one team, I can't beleive that Honda wasn't able to supply just one. For the (relatively) little money they spend in F1, they would have had a lot of publicity today.

And don't tell me it was about Mercedes engines today: just look at what Heikki and Force India have done with basically the same engine and gear boxes. Nothing. Lewis was slower than toyotas, Red Bulls and BMWs.

Honda executives = incompetents.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by karimbo

And don't tell me it was about Mercedes engines today: just look at what Heikki and Force India have done with basically the same engine and gear boxes. Nothing. Lewis was slower than toyotas, Red Bulls and BMWs.

Thank god you stopped us all, we were about to say exactly that!

I think everyone knew Ross would guide the team to build a great car. I think also everyone knows that the Honda management were somewhat misguided, even our friend neilap lost faith in them.

Selling the team as it approached it's greatest day was fitting. But I'm happy, much better to see the Brawn name in the winners circle than the clowns from Japan. A lot of this is down to him after all.

[ukaskew]

That depends on if you agree or not that being in F1 actually has any genuine value for manufacturers, especially those that offer very few - if any - sports cars. I can see how the likes of the Clio Cup, Fiat 500 Cup or something along those lines could work as you can go and buy a car 90% the same, but not F1.

If Honda were racing today, would that brand awareness generated actually do anything for them? I'm sure a few hundred million can be spent on far more proven marketing methods.

[djinvicta]

This must be the biggest kept secret of all time in F1. Noone can tell me that 3 weeks ago this team was defunct. I reckon Ross knew at the start of 2008 that Honda were off. The discussion and deals over the last year have evolved and Ross persuaded them to throw money at 2009 car. Thats why the 2008 was a dog. You cant tell me Branson 3 weeks ago decided to throw money at this.
Decisions like this take months to approve and negotiations must have been intense. Why has Jenson hung on there with no job? Because he knew he had one. Lets face it, Ross is no prick; knows all the ins and outs.
Terrific!! The best result today. Emotional English racing at its best. Good Luck Ross and the team; the UK need more of you!! Love it..

[juicy sushi]

honda felt they couldn't justify spending $400 million per year on their corporate vanity while laying off staff for the first time ever in japan. they just felt that would be a PR disaster, with the press asking exactly how many jobs could have been saved for $400 million. so, they did what they felt was the honourable thing and pulled out, but rather than shut down the team, let them fight for themselves, with $70 million to fund them for the year, because that was cheaper than shutting the team down.

i think that based on honda's perspective and situation, the decision makes sense. i think they didn't want to do it, and will be back in future. but in late 2008/early 2009, with honda's situation being what it was, that was the choice they felt appropriate...

[djinvicta]

Bet they bloody regret it now!! Just put the right guy in charge instead of corporate idiots that no nowt about F1

[Satorian]

Sometimes you have to muck your hand even on the river while holding pocket aces. For a variety of reasons Honda couldn't justify their F1 effort any longer, winning or no winning, and had to let the team go. With the recent power shift in upper management and increased brand reorientation, it could have been the right move from their perspective.

[notguilty]

they wouldnt of had this result if they were Honda F1. You have to face that reality.They would of been midfield at best and blown up around half distance.Those RELIABLE Mercedes powerplants took what was well above average chassis[with that improved diffuser] to this amazing result.I'm a huge fan of this team but I'm just counting all the parts to make the whole.

[RaiseYourFist]

Meh, only the money and engines came from Japan, everything else in the upper management is the same as last year.

[neilap]

This is not true. In fact the car would have been better with the Honda motor. It was designed with a Honda motor in mind and it would have had KERS. The Mac was the best compromise. If you think the motor would have been unreliable there is really no reason for that either because they were not blowing up before. Now, the driveability is another story. Mac had them beaten on that.

Originally Posted by notguilty

they wouldnt of had this result if they were Honda F1. You have to face that reality.They would of been midfield at best and blown up around half distance.Those RELIABLE Mercedes powerplants took what was well above average chassis[with that improved diffuser] to this amazing result.I'm a huge fan of this team but I'm just counting all the parts to make the whole.

As for Honda being pillocks, well, I feel they made a rushed and poor decision. They are still spending a huge amount of money this year on the team. I believe they should have given the team a warning that they intend to leave at the end of this season and worked hard on getting a buyer or more sponsors for the team. It is crazy that they believed they could foot the bill while others were racing with sponsor money.
Honda proved they are very poor at running an F1 team. They were successful when prodrive was running things and then again now that Brawn is running things. When they brought people from their motogp division to run the teams tech. staff, it told me they had not clue. Maybe they should lose some of the national pride and go with what works.

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

honda felt they couldn't justify spending $400 million per year on their corporate vanity while laying off staff for the first time ever in japan. they just felt that would be a PR disaster, with the press asking exactly how many jobs could have been saved for $400 million. so, they did what they felt was the honourable thing and pulled out, but rather than shut down the team, let them fight for themselves, with $70 million to fund them for the year, because that was cheaper than shutting the team down.

i think that based on honda's perspective and situation, the decision makes sense. i think they didn't want to do it, and will be back in future. but in late 2008/early 2009, with honda's situation being what it was, that was the choice they felt appropriate...

Agreed, non-essential expenditure is being heavily scrutinised everywhere at the moment. Honda is a lot smaller company than Toyota and less able to ignore the cost of an F1 team. In the current financial year their income from selling cars will probably fall by that amount.

To the OP - Brawn or not there was no guarantee the car would be a success, hindsight is easy!

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by Satorian

Sometimes you have to muck your hand even on the river while holding pocket aces.

Spot the poker player

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by neilap

This is not true. In fact the car would have been better with the Honda motor. It was designed with a Honda motor in mind and it would have had KERS. The Mac was the best compromise. If you think the motor would have been unreliable there is really no reason for that either because they were not blowing up before. Now, the driveability is another story. Mac had them beaten on that.

A point of view but not one shared by most of the team, i can assure you............

....and KERS was never under serious consideration either.

[kartracer41]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

This must be the biggest kept secret of all time in F1. Noone can tell me that 3 weeks ago this team was defunct. I reckon Ross knew at the start of 2008 that Honda were off. The discussion and deals over the last year have evolved and Ross persuaded them to throw money at 2009 car. Thats why the 2008 was a dog. You cant tell me Branson 3 weeks ago decided to throw money at this.
Decisions like this take months to approve and negotiations must have been intense. Why has Jenson hung on there with no job? Because he knew he had one. Lets face it, Ross is no prick; knows all the ins and outs.
Terrific!! The best result today. Emotional English racing at its best. Good Luck Ross and the team; the UK need more of you!! Love it..

So where did Stepany and Coughlan fall into this equation? Now it all starts to make sense.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by karimbo

Are the Honda executives idiots? The were willing to throw hundreds of millions of dollars at Craig Pollock and Jacques Villeneuve for years, and then, they decided to quit when Ross "Genius" Brawn was designing his first car for them. Talk about a great marketing move!!

Hey, it's worse than that. When BAR started Honda threw a fortune behind Harvey Postlethwaite who produced a car that set some eye-watering times at official tests, and only then did Honda decide they would just supply engines instead.

So they backed the wrong horse, then when they got the right chap in in Richards dumped him, and now, just when they revive the Impossible Dream advert, see their car take a 1-2 - when they can do sweet FA about it.

[one wooden leg]

honda made the right choice could you imagine the uproar if they had stayed in the current climate funding an F1 team. Oh by the way i work for honda and have a 4 month enforced lay off hopefully go back in june if all is well.

[old man]

Originally Posted by ukaskew

That depends on if you agree or not that being in F1 actually has any genuine value for manufacturers, especially those that offer very few - if any - sports cars. I can see how the likes of the Clio Cup, Fiat 500 Cup or something along those lines could work as you can go and buy a car 90% the same, but not F1.

If Honda were racing today, would that brand awareness generated actually do anything for them? I'm sure a few hundred million can be spent on far more proven marketing methods.

I am sorry to disagree with you on how valuable F1 racing is to a manufacturer. The perception of quality and engineering skill is almost subliminal but it is very real. Many years ago Renault quoted a 5% increase in market share after they successfully entered F1 and do you think BMW would have come in against Mercedes if they did not think they would beneifit? The car buying public may not all watch F1 or be able to tell you much about it but the image perception is there and the converse is true, if you are seen to spend lots and are unable to win that is damaging to your image which is why I am amazed that Toyota are still there.

Back in the 1990s most manufacturers were in the BTCC and it snowballed into a very expensive series where Ford, BMW and Vauxhall did much of the winning but it was very open and as costs escalated the ones that were not winning pulled out until it almost died. The WTCC is in the same boat now with the situation agravated by the recession. Corvette are pulling out of GT1 because there is nobody to win against and going into GT2 in the hope of beating Porsche and Ferrari.

I am a firm believer in "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" but "Lose on Sunday" eventually has its cost in marketing and sales. Audi must be delighted that Peugeot have come into Le Mans and now with Aston Martin backed by Prodrive there winning LMP1 means a great deal more.

Clio races and one make series are great fun and a good promotion tool but you only showcase the car, winning is down to the drivers so it is not worth as much as beating your competitors. Look how Renault fill the circuits with free tickets for the World Series events, they are just using it to entertain guests and make them feel good but if they cut spending on racing I would bet on F1 staying and that series going rather than the other way round. Years ago Ford put nothing into Formula Ford but spent money on developing the Ford DFV and the Rally cars with the BDA and FVA engines that came out of the DFV, quality image

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by neilap

Maybe they should lose some of the national pride and go with what works.

The Japanese will never do that. And Honda F1 always had been a British team anyway.

I am sorry to disagree with you on how valuable F1 racing is to a manufacturer. The perception of quality and engineering skill is almost subliminal but it is very real. Many years ago Renault quoted a 5% increase in market share after they successfully entered F1 and do you think BMW would have come in against Mercedes if they did not think they would beneifit? The car buying public may not all watch F1 or be able to tell you much about it but the image perception is there and the converse is true, if you are seen to spend lots and are unable to win that is damaging to your image which is why I am amazed that Toyota are still there.

How many people are affected in their car purchase by the fact the carmaker is racing in F1? Now, take that percentage, and then figure out how many extra cars that a manufacturer would sell compared to if they were not competing in F1? Then, figure up the cost per extra car sold based on the manufacturer's entire cost of the F1 marketing effort.

So if Renault spent, say, $150 million on Formula One last year. They would have to sell 150,000 cars more than they would not have if they were not competing in F1 for the cost of the F1 marketing effort applied to the extra cars sold to be $1000 per car.

[old man]

So why do they do it?

[Icebaby]

The Honda group would have known the car was very good however even winning the championship in F1 is no indication you will sell more cars..therefore I would say Honda got it spot on in pulling out of a sport that reaps little return regardless to the sucess achieved.

The only error thay made was leaving it so long, if you want to use motosport to sell cars then touring cars is the way to go as customers can relate to what they see in the showroom.

[GORDON STREETER]

The subliminal advertising by winning certainly does work. Very few people had heard of Honda in the late 50s early 60s, but when they started winning at the Isle of Man and then motor cycle GPs the writing was on the wall, and the British motorcycle industry was finished with their head in the sand attitude !
I think the first Honda car imported into the UK was the little 2 seater coupe about 1960 ish ! they never sold many cars until several years later but the "name" was already here.

[djinvicta]

Originally Posted by old man

So why do they do it?

Im sure its all tax deductable somewhere. I think the problem stemmed from the inability to put the right people in charge.
Whoever put RB in charge and then thought this man with all his success and ability was not going to pull it together in the long haul made the wrong decision.
Honda produced a great package with Williams with different leadership years ago, perhaps the men at the top should go. They knew 9 months ago what was going on; Big decisions in huge Corporations dont happen in days or weeks or months. Well done Ross and Branson!

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Im sure its all tax deductable somewhere. I think the problem stemmed from the inability to put the right people in charge.
Whoever put RB in charge and then thought this man with all his success and ability was not going to pull it together in the long haul made the wrong decision.
Honda produced a great package with Williams with different leadership years ago, perhaps the men at the top should go. They knew 9 months ago what was going on; Big decisions in huge Corporations dont happen in days or weeks or months. Well done Ross and Branson!

One thing everyone is missing is the violent currency changes, especially regarding the yen. The yen was manipulated downward by the Japanese government for a long time to the benefit of its domestic manufacturers a la the Chinese with the yuan, and when the yen carry trades unwound, the yen had this huge appreciation which killed the profitability of the Japanese carmakers in a large way. So a large chunk of money that existed because of government manipulation no longer existed, and so Honda, as all other companies in the world, had to choose where to cut spending in a big way. If they didn't kill the F1 team, that just means they would had to have killed something somewhere else by the same amount.

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by karimbo

Are the Honda executives idiots? The were willing to throw hundreds of millions of dollars at Craig Pollock and Jacques Villeneuve for years, and then, they decided to quit when Ross "Genius" Brawn was designing his first car for them. Talk about a great marketing move!!

They should have taken over... a team what would be known as "Force Japan" if they had done it.