Will the new 1.6T engines have ALS?

[1975DCS]

It seems to be a bit difficult to have a glue how the new F1 class will look and sound. It is also a bit difficult to find some simple overview of the regulations, but is there any information of the size of the restrictor? And will those engines have ALS? Making them sound popping and banging like the old WRC but then with much higher reving engines?

[Marbot]

The new engines will be fuel flow limited to about 60% of what they use now (each car will have the same amount of fuel to start the race), so an air restrictor wouldn't be necessary.

Modern turbos use things like variable vane and twin scroll technology in order to reduce turbo lag.

It has yet to be decided what sort of turbocharging is to be allowed on the new engines. Some favour exhaust driven KERS for example, while others prefer more conventional Turbo-compound technology.

[wnut]

Fairly difficult to run a good custom anti-lag system with the standard McLaren electronic management systems. The average lap speeds are probably constant enough to pretty well make the systems uneccessary, the rally cars have longer periods with the throttle closed, but still ...

[neiltb]

would there not be an intent to heavily revise the ECU with this major change to how the motors are to operate?

but to marbots point turbos have come a long way in the last 10 years (look at the cost of replacement ones!)

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by neiltb

would there not be an intent to heavily revise the ECU with this major change to how the motors are to operate?

but to marbots point turbos have come a long way in the last 10 years (look at the cost of replacement ones!)

Never mind intent, I would expect a new ECU to handle a turbo engine (or at least completely new SW in the ECU, which amounts to pretty much the same thing).

[cmotd]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

...like the old WRC but then with much higher reving engines?

engine revs are limited to 12000rpm so not actually that much higher than the old WRC. I suspect that they will sound a bit like hi-po motorbike or marine engines that are already similar in spec to that anyway

[Marbot]

Bernie dead against new engine formula.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89976

[ASCII Man]

Amazingly, I actually agree with Bernie there.

[Marbot]

V12 1.5 turbos ?

Although, tbh, no one in MotoGP complains about a lack of noise there.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Although, tbh, no one in MotoGP complains about a lack of noise there.

That's not really being honest, there.
Unless you know the opinion of everyone in MotoGP?

[neiltb]

the only reason BE says the ladies love the noise, is because the ones he hangs around with were too young to appreciate how good it really was in '94.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

That's not really being honest, there.
Unless you know the opinion of everyone in MotoGP?

OK. AFAIK, no one complains about the lack of noise in MotoGP.

It's just as noisy as F1, but it's a different noise.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by neiltb

the only reason BE says the ladies love the noise, is because the ones he hangs around with were too young to appreciate how good it really was in '94.

If you just want the noise, then you will find no better series than Superleague (V12, 4.2 litre, 12,000rpm, 750bhp).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv_Qf...eature=related

But it's not F1.

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by Marbot

But it's not F1.

And what we'll have in 2013 won't be either...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Spritle

And what we'll have in 2013 won't be either...

No. I think you'll find that whatever the regs happen to be in 2013, it will still be F1. It's not like F1 always had V10's and V12's.

[knighty]

I'm fortunate enough (I think) to have read a draft copy of the 2013 F1 powertrain rules......... regarding ALS, the rules actually allows electronic assist boosting to the existing turbocharger, whereby the electrical motor must be directly attached to the turbo shaft, I'm told this rule was written in conjunction with Honeywell-Garrett, hence they wrote the rule in favour of their own e-boost technology........which neither works or is comercially available.......and from my experience will never work due to the horrendous temperature profile accross a turbocharger is no place for an electrical motor which cannot handle more that 200DegC........if the FIA have any sense they will re-write this rule to allow an electronic boost assist device and bypass valve to be mounted remotely........watch this space!

forget exhaust driven generators, they are fools gold and not worth a toss

for reasons of fuel economy I'm pretty sure you will never see the "bang-bang" style of WRC ALS in 2013 F1

[Marbot]

I'm assuming that this is the motor that keeps the turbo spinning up at predetermined rpms to avoid lag?

It sounds just like the one that a friend of mine has on his modified 1.9 turbo diesel Vectra?

[knighty]

correct, electronic boost-assist basically gives boost on demand in the lower rev range of an agressivley downsized and heavily boosted engine, where there would otherwise be a shed load of turbo-lag, like 5 seconds worth, which makes them totally undrivable and therefore unviable for almost any road going application..........many other OEM engines are due to arrive in the next 2-4 years, typically 1.0-1.2L with 150-180bhp with electronic boost assist.

once the F1 engine and chassis boys realise what electronic boost assist does to the drivability of the 2013 turbo engines, rest assured they will be all over it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Spritle

And what we'll have in 2013 won't be either...

You're right and Bernie is too!


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89976

F1 should be mental and on the edge.
What boost pressure do they intend running, 2,5 bar?
Turbo engines will make the cars slower to react to driver input as well and more difficult to dice with one another.

[knighty]

there is no limit on boost pressure, just a limit of the maximum fuel flow, and fuel pressure (100kg/hr & 500bar)...........finally - they have listened to what Keith Duckworth said a long time ago........yes, I would expect the boost to be in the order of 2.5 Bar gauge for the predicted power they want, which I think is 600bhp-ish........the KERS system will provide 120Kw (161hp) so they will still be good for 760bhp, which is well in line with todays 2.4 V8 power

engines must be I4, and upright, so forget all the nonsense about V4's and laying engines on the side. They have even defined the bolt patterns for engine attachment to the gear box and monocoque, minimum valve stem OD, max bore size, minimum weight, minimum installed crank height etc.......so there really is only small amounts of room for development potential of the 2013 engines

not sure I agree they will dull the racing, quite the opposite actually, I think they will sound fantastic and have monster torque, circa 600NM+, tgherefore the corner exit speeds are going to be brutal, unlike the current 2.4 V8 "screamer" forumla.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by knighty

not sure I agree they will dull the racing, quite the opposite actually, I think they will sound fantastic and have monster torque, circa 600NM+, tgherefore the corner exit speeds are going to be brutal, unlike the current 2.4 V8 "screamer" forumla.

Agreed. Ironically, the smaller turbo charged engines will be far more 'drivable' than the rather 'peaky' and 'gutless' 2.4 V8's, which actually have no more torque than a road going 2.4 naturally aspirated car (around 300NM)!

Actually, because torque can be multiplied by lowering gear ratios (you would need lower ratios on an 18,000rpm engine than you would on a 12,000rpm engine of the same power), there won't be a massive difference, but it will still be a difference in favour of the turbo engine.

I'm not so sure that F1 should be: "mental and on the edge" either.

[Greem]

I expect it won't happen, but I wonder if we'll see some grenades being built like the good old days of turbo engine development?

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by wnut

Turbo engines will make the cars slower to react to driver input as well and more difficult to dice with one another.

Sounds like a recipe for better racing to me.

[cmotd]

Originally Posted by wnut

You're right and Bernie is too!


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89976

This should show us how much influence Bernie has over the F1 rule-makers then, although the regs have been through 9 drafts and sent out to manufacturers last december so it may be too late to complain now

[wnut]

My question is why have the made an I4 the spec when an I3 would make a better more efficient turbo engine. Spec the max cylinders, but at least leave the design open.
Maybe Ducati would like to do a desmo twin.