Fastest ever Sportscar?

[MJones94]

Yes, I know what you're thinking. Another one of those fastest/best/most successful threads. I know how you feel, but I am curious as to whether sportscars are the fastest they have ever been, or have regulations and restrictions mean we have taken a step back.

I'd like to hear what people have to say and see if we can make a good thread out of this.

Matt

[Dead-Eye]

Depends on your definition of fastest. In a straight line, nothing will ever beat the late Group C cars. Over a lap of Le Mans? The qualifying lap record is from 2008 I think. Over the 24 hours? In a clean race without safety cars I suspect the current R18 will be faster than almost anything that was ever out there (including the R15 currently holding the distance record), because it has to spend less time in the pits refueling and changing tires.

[Adam43]

'tis a good point. If you were going to chose any car that had competed at Le Mans to race for the win it is the R18.

Any car in the history to set the fastest lap? That'll be the R18, or maybe the Peugeot or Toyota.

Progress is still beating the regulations.

[Simmi]

Strictly speaking it's the WM-Peugeot from 1988.

Gerard Welter/Michel Meunier project. Hit 405km/h (252mph) in the hands of Roger Dorchy on the Mulsanne.

(Thanks to the Group C Autosport for featuring this info so recently).

[Fogelhund]

During the 1988 race, the crew of a W.M. prototype taped over the engine openings and set a recorded speed of 405 km/h (252 mph) down the Mulsanne in a publicity stunt, although the car was almost undrivable elsewhere on the circuit and the engine was soon destroyed from a lack of cooling. However, for the 1989 event, the Mercedes-Benz C9 reached 399 km/h (248 mph) under qualifying conditions.



The record for distance was set in the 2010 24 Hours of Le Mans, when the #9 Audi R15 TDI plus of Joest Racing (under the name Audi Sport North America) tied the record for the number of laps around the Le Mans circuit (at 397 laps) and, due to its changing course configurations (such as the Mulsanne straight chicanes), set an outright distance record of 5,410.7 km over the 13.629-km course configuration.

[DistortedSmile]

In terms of outright speed, the fastest lap ever in the current layout of Le Mans was set by the 2008 spec Pug 908 with a 3:18.513.
3.5l Group C cars were also stupidly fast, in 92 the Pug 905 took pole with a 3:21.200 (that's faster than this year's pole).

[Fogelhund]

Pole Position: Jackie Oliver, Porsche 917, 3:13.9 = 250.069 km/h 1971
Fastest Lap: Jackie Oliver, Porsche 917, 3.18.4 = 244.387 km/h 1971
Pole Position: Hans-Joachim Stuck, Porsche, 3:14.8 = 251.815 km/h 1985
Pole Position: Jochen Mass, Porsche, 3:15.990 = 248.486 km/h 1986
Pole Position: Hans-Joachim Stuck, Porsche 962 C, 3:15.64 = 250.164 km/h 1988
Pole Position: Pedro Lamy / Alexander Wurz / Stéphane Sarrazin, 3'18.513" 2008
Fastest Lap: Pedro Lamy / Alexander Wurz / Stéphane Sarrazin, 3'19.394" (Lap 102) 2008
Pole Position: Bourdais / Lamy / Pagenaud - Peugeot, 3'19.711" = 245.677 km/h 2010
Fastest Lap: Panis / Lapierre / Duval - Peugeot, 3'19.074"

You can choose how you want to view fastest... obvious circuit changes, chicanes etc... quickest qualifying lap was 1971, fastest lap speed 1985.. put them all on the track today, on the same track, and there is no question that the Pug would out run them.

[MJones94]

Ah! my bad! I was thinking more on lap time speed rather than top speed on a straight.

[gregtummer]

2008 Peugeot 908 HDI FAP
Close would be:
2010 Peugeot 908 HDI FAP
2008 Audi R10
2010 Audi R15+

[JAGLeMans]

Some of the later Group C cars could qualify under 3.30, but in the race lapped nearer 3.40, current cars are around 3.25-3.30 during the race. In the Group C era teams often prepared cars which were out of the running for a crack at the fastest race lap.

[gregtummer]

Don't forget, the Dunlop esses have been added since Group C raced there.

[Aysedasi]

Most of the Group C cars also raced pre the chicanes on the Mulsanne. And the Dunlop Curve was only added in 1987.

[deggis]

It's a shame Peugeot never released full onboard video of the record lap. Especially when that year the cameras were placed further enough that the steering wheel was visible.

Blundell's pole lap from 1990 must be the most entertaining recorded onboard lap, despite what the clock says (3.27).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lMItc4cy8U

[Salamus]

Don't forget, reliability has also gotten a lot better. Now a days, drivers can push their cars from start to finish where as prototypes of the past took a more careful approach in order for the cars to last 24 hours. Audi/Peugeot would dominate the race.

[Flo aus N]

Well, the 908 used in 2008 and 2010 with 750-800 horsepower is the fastest sportscar. Personally, i would like to know how fast the R18 ultra would lap the circuits (inclouding Le Mans), if it would have the same power as the 908 (adopted via boost pressure and air restrictors.). What do you think ?

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by Flo aus N

Well, the 908 used in 2008 and 2010 with 750-800 horsepower is the fastest sportscar. Personally, i would like to know how fast the R18 ultra would lap the circuits (inclouding Le Mans), if it would have the same power as the 908 (adopted via boost pressure and air restrictors.). What do you think ?

I would guess slightly under a 3:10.

[Purist]

It's interesting for sure, and it depends on what you want to do, or what you ask.

I will say right now that the older cars can't run today's LMP1 pace on today's iteration of the Le Mans circuit. However, today's LMP1s would have a markedly harder time getting away from yesterday's prototypes, whether that's Group C or even cars like the Ford GT40 Mk. IV, Ferrari 330 P3/4, Porsche 917, or Ferrari 512, if they were both on the old Le Mans circuit (before 1972). Back then, you had no chicanes, except for the Ford Chicane in 1968-71, and "the Esse", Tertre Rouge, and Mulsanne were significantly tighter corners than they are now. Also, back then, you had no Porsche Curves, just Maison Blanche. I might add that those older prototypes don't particularly lack power on the current Audi R18 or Toyota TS030. They weigh less, and make quite a bit less drag.

Now, for a street circuit, I want the grunt and the slippery shape of a GTP. The LMP1s might get me in qualifying, but when I hit the straights, they're toast, and they will have a hell of a time even trying to pass me back in the corners.

[TF110]

Tires are a lot better now as well. You saw Toyota was able to run 1:46's and 1:45's throughout the race at Silverstone on the same set of tires for over 40laps. They even set their best lap of a 1:44.059 during the race that bested their qualifying time by 4tenths of a second.

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Strictly speaking it's the WM-Peugeot from 1988.

Gerard Welter/Michel Meunier project. Hit 405km/h (252mph) in the hands of Roger Dorchy on the Mulsanne.

(Thanks to the Group C Autosport for featuring this info so recently).

407 km/h is also often mentioned as the topspeed of the WM88, but apparently this is some Peugeot advertising their (then) new model 405?
So true topspeed 407, advertising topspeed 405?

[MJones94]

The gap in pace between lmp1 cars and f1 cars has widened to about 10 seconds since the nineties. Having said that, I think the 92 Peugeot lapped silverstone quick enough to be classified as 7/8th on that years Grand Prix grid.

I think the gap now though is 10 seconds + at some circuits. Mind you, LMP1 cars are 280 kg heavier, have 250 less horsepower and are 1 and a half seaters, yet still are brutally rapid!

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MJones94

The gap in pace between lmp1 cars and f1 cars has widened to about 10 seconds since the nineties. Having said that, I think the 92 Peugeot lapped silverstone quick enough to be classified as 7/8th on that years Grand Prix grid.

13th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_500km_of_Silverstone
http://f1-facts.com/outcomes/race/19...sification?o=q

I think the gap now though is 10 seconds + at some circuits. Mind you, LMP1 cars are 280 kg heavier, have 250 less horsepower and are 1 and a half seaters, yet still are brutally rapid!

After the 2011 regs, the gap widened slightly because LMPs became slower while F1s got faster, but it has been around that for some time. This is of course about as fast as ACO wants LMPs to go. Right now only comparable circuits are Spa and Silverstone.

[Gingers4Justice]

I think what must have helped the Atmo cars was a much clearer track. Sportscar racing was in the duldrums and I'm pretty sure a clear lap in qualifying could be easily achieved while now it is impossible. Also, wouldn't the Jaguar XJR-14 probably had gone faster than the Pug in a dry qualifying session?

I also wonder what the fastest road-based Le Mans car is (I think that needs to be defined first though!)

[CyberMotor]

Back in 1998 at the first Petit Le Mans, I interviewed Doc Bundy. He was driving the Panoz Hybrid but I got off topic a bit and asked him about the Corvette GTP. I don't think it ever raced at Le Mans, so might not hold up against some of the cars mentioned in this thread, but thought his comments interesting...

Cyber: On a different subject. Last week I was telling someone that the fastest car that I ever saw at a specific point on the track at Road Atlanta was the Corvette GTP and you were driving it.

Doc: Was it right before the dip?

Cyber: Yes.

Doc: That car... We were here testing and I wondered how fast it was really going. So they said, "Give us the tach reading through there and we will figure it out." That car didn't have what we have today in a dash that actually gives us a speed readout. At that time, we didn't have those electronics. So, I gave him the RPM reading... 7200, 7400 or whatever it was when I came in during testing to make a change. So, I gave it to him and he said he would figure it out and I went back out. When we took a break, I asked him, "Did you ever have a chance to calculate the speed?" He said, "Yeah, you were going 208 mph!" I said to him, "I think I would rather not have known that!"

Because, I would never have believed that a car could run over 200 mph through there. Especially not a big car and it was a relatively big car. An open-wheel car, yes, but not a big car. Yes, that car was VERY fast!

Cyber: I must of saw you when you were doing those laps because you were flying!

Doc: That was an impressive car.

Brian Faulkner, who built the engine, during the past couple of years, I have asked him, "Brian, you would never tell us how much horsepower it developed." He said, "Often, you would not let me turn it up." It was not the best handling car and we just couldn't handle all the power that it had. But occasionally, we would turn it up. Brian said, "In qualifying, you were at 1200+ horsepower and over 900 hp in the races."

It was a powerful car!

Cyber: So that speed of 208 mph, how does that compare to the what the Jaguar XJR-14, the Nissans and Toyotas were doing through there?

Doc: One thing about the Corvette is that it handled high speed very well. At Daytona once, when we were there testing, I said, "Let's figure out how fast we are going." There, we hit 240 mph! The car was very fast in a straight line. At the test, Wally Dallenbach was there with me. Before he got in, I said, "Wally, this car is very fast." Wally looked at me and said something like, "Doc, I have been in fast cars before" and he took off. When he came in, I opened the door and Wally's eyes were as big as saucers. He grabbed my arm, starting shaking it and said, "This sucker is FAST! This sucker is FAST!"

So, yes, that car was very fast.

[kober]

Originally Posted by deggis

Right now only comparable circuits are Spa and Silverstone.

As long as F1 and LMP1 will race on a different variant of Silverstone, Spa is the only circuit on which the speed can be compared.

[Koenigsegg]

Originally Posted by kober

As long as F1 and LMP1 will race on a different variant of Silverstone, Spa is the only circuit on which the speed can be compared.

F1 and LMP1 are racing on the same Silverstone circuit.

Fastest lap at Silverstone this year for F1 was a 1:34.661 by Kimi Räikkönen.
Fastest lap at Silverstone this year for LMP1 was a 1:44.059 by Nicolas Lapierre.

Both times are from the race. It was wet in qualify for both F1 and LMP1.