NGTC - Big white elephant??

[Spanner monkey]

In a couple more weeks time we'll be at the half way point in the BTCC calendar! With jyst under 50% of the grid being NGTC and having only Sweden saying they'll accept NGTC cars ,will this end up as a big waste if money for teams already commited to the cars!
Surely Alan Gow (being FIA Touring car top man!!) should have got more countrys to sign up by now or will turbo S2000 cars be the way forward???

[werner]

1 other country that will use the rules designed for the btcc is already +1 compared to the last time the BTCC made their own technical rules. Are there any other countries that could potentially have their NGTC-championship? I can only see the ADAC-procar cup as a possibility.

[touring fan01]

The NGTC regs has given us a fantatsic variety of cars that we havent seen since he 90s. The regs were only designed for the BTCC. If other countries take them fine but if they don't then it doesn't make any difference to the BTCC.

[MJones94]

I like the way the NGTC cars are, and I hope that more championships adopt them in the future. The underlying problem is that it seems every single country has its own set of regulations. For instance:

BTCC --->NGTC
STCC --->S2000+NGTC
WTCC -->S1600/S2000
ADAC PROCAR--->S2000/Mixture
TTA----->Silhouette design
AUSSIE V8--->Their own regs
Superstars Series--->Similar to Aussie V8s

So it will be hard to have one regimented class that will be adopted by all of these countries. It would be brilliant if they were to all adopt NGTC mind you.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Spanner monkey

Surely Alan Gow (being FIA Touring car top man!!) should have got more countrys to sign up by now or will turbo S2000 cars be the way forward???

NGTC was never intended to be anything other than a national formula. Gow and the FIA are never going to push a largely spec formula for international use.

[Spanner monkey]

Thats the point! Too many different regulations. The more series that adopt it then the better due to companys like Dynamics/Rml/888 having a customer base to sell new/used cars to.

[Pettersson]

I wouldn't say the introduction of NGTC has been successful in Sweden. The NGTC-engines are a good way to go for teams, but it doesn't look like many Swedish teams will go for a full NGTC campaign. Engström and Honda Sweden was going to make a switch to an NGTC Civic but they binned those plans and Dynamics has said they won't be doing any more Civics at the moment. The Ahlberg brothers has said they want to go NGTC in 2013, but we only have to wait and see. They are a very small team with very limited resources. But at the moment I don't see many teams going for a full NGTC cars in Sweden for 2013, at least not from what I heard.

[nickyf1]

I really think that touring car racing is in a mess with all of these different formulas. And no domestic championship with their own rule set are too bothered with other series adopting them.

I really think the worlds series need to get together and come up with a world wide formula and join together in encouraging manufacturers to build cars. A two-class formula, with the top being catered for manufacturers, and the second tier catering for private or semi-works efforts.

As excited I was about NGTC, and as good as it looks on paper, it does absolutely nothing for me. Neither does S2000, DTM or TTA.

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

I really think that touring car racing is in a mess with all of these different formulas. And no domestic championship with their own rule set are too bothered with other series adopting them.

I really think the worlds series need to get together and come up with a world wide formula and join together in encouraging manufacturers to build cars. A two-class formula, with the top being catered for manufacturers, and the second tier catering for private or semi-works efforts.

As excited I was about NGTC, and as good as it looks on paper, it does absolutely nothing for me. Neither does S2000, DTM or TTA.

Yes, the problem is that every championship will stand by their different specs and not budge.

[steve_r]

If we were sat here with the BTCC grid either half empty, or still only containing a couple of NGTC cars, then yes, you would call the regs a white elephant. However, we have a large number of teams that have built NGTC cars to a high standard, so to call it a white elephant is completely wrong IMO.

As far as I understand, the aim of the NGTC regs were not to standardise every other countries national championship to the same rules, so to claim that they are a failure because other countries use different rules is misguided.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

I really think that touring car racing is in a mess with all of these different formulas. And no domestic championship with their own rule set are too bothered with other series adopting them.

I really think the worlds series need to get together and come up with a world wide formula and join together in encouraging manufacturers to build cars. A two-class formula, with the top being catered for manufacturers, and the second tier catering for private or semi-works efforts.

Nice idea, but what's in it for the manufacturers? Tin-top motorsport isn't the big promotional tool it was years ago.

And why would any manufacturer want to build an NGTC car? Half the car wouldn't be theirs, it'd be the same as every other car on the grid.

NGTC is doing what it was intended, it's cheaper and is getting more high-end clubmen involved. Bugger all to do with touring cars, though - it's the MSA equivalent of National Hot-rods.

[Sodemo]

Where does one start when talking about touring car rules...?

I was initially, positive about the NGTC regs, they seemed to offer a cheaper, but potentially faster ruleset for the BTCC to move forward with, however I am not certain that has actually been achieved. For a start, are the cars any cheaper to build? Some teams have come out and said that the costs between S2000 and NGTC actually aren't that much different. I suspect the initial cost outlay of NGTC is high, but perhaps the running costs are a bit lower?

For me, as a spectacle, I think the NGTC cars are "ok". They just don't seem to have the poise or precision of the old supertourers or even the S2000 cars. They just seem "wallowy" and very "soft", like a blancmange on wheels, they have so much body-roll. I would liken them to a nascar of sorts, which is probably why they can launch over kerbs more than S2000 cars, (they seem to be able to drive straight over them without much deflection at all).

If I were heading up the BTCC, I perhaps would not have gone down the full NGTC car route, instead I might have been tempted to stick with S2000 for another couple of years and perhaps just adopt the NGTC engine or maybe even the FIA1600 engine and stick with S2000. For me, S2000 itself was fine, though I always felt that the cars could be doing with being a touch quicker.

If I were in charge, I would have stuck with S2000, but with the following changes;

- More powerful, turbo engines (either NGTC or FIA1600) with 350bhp being the target.
- Bigger wheels, 18" or 19", single centre wheel nut.
- A softer, wider tyre compound, faster cornering speeds, bring an element of tyre preservation (wheel arch size permitting).

Call the rules, S2000B or something...

[MJones94]

For me the stance and shape of NGTC cars are much more inspiring than S2000 cars. I have however noticed more and more that the NGTC cars seem to lumber around the track as Sodemo just mentioned. I get the NASCAR reference too, making the NGTC cars seem like a hammer in comparison to S2000's precision drill.

[wolfhound]

I think that on a global scale there should be 2 basic types of touring car.

One for larger more powerful spectacular cars ala Aussie V8s or DTM. These should be primarilly for manufacturers

The other for cars similar in power to S2000 that should have an upper limit on cost to users, that would be primarily for privateers. These cars would be used mostly in national championships.

Both classes should be designed for close annd spectacular racing.

[Sodemo]

The costs for me are what seem a touch crazy. You can buy an M3 for £50,000. Strip it out, fit a roll cage, racing seat and there you have a touring car. Quite why they have to cost £120,000 puzzles me.

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I think that on a global scale there should be 2 basic types of touring car.

One for larger more powerful spectacular cars ala Aussie V8s or DTM. These should be primarilly for manufacturers

The other for cars similar in power to S2000 that should have an upper limit on cost to users, that would be primarily for privateers. These cars would be used mostly in national championships.

Both classes should be designed for close annd spectacular racing.

Agreed. I also feel that there should be another class added below S2000. Forgive me for my lack of knowledge, but Fiestas/Mazda 2s etc. With these cars there is no factory teams needed, just enough outfits willing to run the incarnations.

[Spanner monkey]

Quite why they have to cost £120,000 puzzles me

I think their almost double that + the engine deal :-(

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The costs for me are what seem a touch crazy. You can buy an M3 for £50,000. Strip it out, fit a roll cage, racing seat and there you have a touring car. Quite why they have to cost £120,000 puzzles me.

£120k was BTC-T. NGTC is supposed to be circa £50k or thereabouts?

[nickyf1]

I thought NGTC was meant to be £100k.

And it needs a better name than NGTC. It was next-gen two years ago, it's now current gen. All this ''Car of the Future'', ''Car of Tomorrow'', ''Next Generation..'' nonsense is going to bite back in a decade or so when it comes to naming the next formula..

I agree with whoever said NGTC has an almost NASCAR quality to it, the MG6 looks very NASCAR. Wheras the Honda looks like a mini Super GT car.

[nickyf1]

Supertouring was just brilliant. The cars had an amazing stance, and had no gimmicky aero pieces like the cars do now. I mean, look at the pictures of this Volvo with no livery. http://www.supertouring.co.uk/the_ca...50_estate.html

It's all in the stance as far as looks are concerned.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The costs for me are what seem a touch crazy. You can buy an M3 for £50,000. Strip it out, fit a roll cage, racing seat and there you have a touring car. Quite why they have to cost £120,000 puzzles me.

Thing is, the M3 is just about the only car you can do that with. Maybe the Audi RS4/5, but that's about it... Nobody else if offering cars in Europe that would be competitive with those two under such a formula (and still be called touring cars - sure, you could do it with a 911)

[nickyf1]

Manufacturers used to build road cars with the intention of racing them, but these days there is no need for that.

I'd love to see the return of homologation specials and evos, in the style of Group A and Group B

[Alfa Fan]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

£120k was BTC-T. NGTC is supposed to be circa £50k or thereabouts?

But you really don't. Suspension not strong enough for racing, gearbox not designed for racing use either. What you'd save in making the cars cheaper you'd lose elsewhere.

[nickyf1]

What GT racing has with GT3 at the moment is perfect.

It's given the manufacturers a market for cars, rather than simple works programmes, and it's become very popular.

That is what touring car racing needs.

[Alfa Fan]

People actually like GT3 and all the performance balancing? It's bad enough the turbo balancing in the BTCC atm, but GT3 is a joke. There is literally no point developing a car for that series as no matter what you turn up with it will be made equivalent to the others.