Tech Issue The Return Of Michelin......

JeremySmith · 30 May 2015, 20:47 (Ref:3543046)

So it *appears* that Michelin are interested in returning to F1 ... I must admit I am interested in seeing them return.. It's fair to say they got a very bad rap after Indy 2005..

Pirelli are doing a very good job aren't they, after all they are doing exactly what was asked of them..Bernie Ecclestone loves Pirelli as they do what they are told, Michelin will not do this..They make great racing and road tyres and not interested in listening to him..

They(Michelin) will return if, and only if F1 will agree to using 18" inch rims..Do we need a larger rim? if so why....

Would you like to see more than one tyre supplier ? A tyre war ...What is better for the sport in the long term...

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the topic, and not to get into a slanging match about all the problems the sport we love appears to be experiencing ?

Let us hear from you...

**ScotsBrutesFan** · 30 May 2015, 22:46 (Ref:3543092)

I've no issue with 18 inch rims, if they are more practical to make and perhaps economical as well though I don't know how much physical cross over there would be in manufacturing equipment to tyres in other series. Michelin clearly think there is.

Again I don't have a problem with more than one provider, however if this came into being, then there would have to be a shakeup in current 4 gradings of tyres and the rules around them.

I'd like to see just three, but with the return of a Qually tyre as well. I'm not a fan of starting a race on the tyres you set the fastest times on in Q2.
Teams must nominate in advance which tyre compounds they want brought along to each event up to the total number allowed sets. So a team might suggest 6 sets of Qually tyres and then spit the remaining total 50/50 medium and soft. or perhaps select a 7th set of Quallies and have one less set of either medium or Soft for the weekend. There would be a regulation that the include a minimum number of Inters and Wets.

Sorry that crosses into the future rules changes but would be relevant in a multi-provider environment.

Oldtony · 31 May 2015, 01:08 (Ref:3543118)

It is probably not possible to have more than a single tyre supplier under the present "compulsory degradation" situation which F1 has used to supposedly spice up the racing.
If a competitive tyre situation was to occur it would have to be on the basis of free choice within the limited number of sets allocated per weekend. That offers the choice of multiple changes or going the whole event on a single set. Alternative compulsion to start on the same set as qualification would probably mandate at least one change.
Personally I would like to see a "tyre war" but with a very tight race weekend allocation to encourage compound and carcass development and research. The move to 18"rims also offers a significant challenge to designers in moving suspension travel from tyre wall to the chassis.
Bring it on. Pirelli, Michelin, Goodyear, Bridgestone et al.

S griffin · 31 May 2015, 10:12 (Ref:3543259)

I agree, tyre war is easier to create exciting racing, than deliberately making bad tyres

F J Nedos · 31 May 2015, 12:27 (Ref:3543319)

I have recollections of the tyre war days when certain teams were given preference for better tyres. You would want to avoid a repeat of that.

Pingguest · 31 May 2015, 13:04 (Ref:3543355)

Quote:

Originally Posted by F J Nedos

I have recollections of the tyre war days when certain teams were given preference for better tyres. You would want to avoid a repeat of that.

Teams are given a preference for better engines too. In other words: the very same arguments against tire competition could be use against engine competition.

TrapezeArtist · 31 May 2015, 13:26 (Ref:3543376)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

I agree, tyre war is easier to create exciting racing, than deliberately making bad tyres

Exactly! There would need to be some pretty tight control of how many sets can be used, and also controls on the compounds and constructions that may be brought to a race (a bit tricky to police, but it has to be). After that, stand back and let the teams do it any way they like. Imagine the excitement of one team doing 3 stops on their Michellis while someone else goes non-stop on Pirelins.

18 inch rims do seem to be a good idea. Although I personally hate silly low-profile tyres on road cars, that is the way of the world on sporty road cars and every type of racing car except F1. It would make the brake designers life easier, and give the chassis guys a new challenge (suspension that actually moves).

The only concern would be if one tyre manufacturer ended up with much better tyres than the other. Then the teams contracted to the inferior tyre wouldn't stand a chance. And with restricted development we would find a similar situation to the current debate on how Renault can catch up on the engine front.

Casper · 31 May 2015, 15:00 (Ref:3543418)

If more movement has to be designed into the suspension due to 18" wheels being used then the aero loads might have to be lessened I would think due to the minimum ride height rule.

**BertMk2** · 1 Jun 2015, 11:53 (Ref:3543744)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

If more movement has to be designed into the suspension due to 18" wheels being used then the aero loads might have to be lessened I would think due to the minimum ride height rule.

But surely the overall movement of suspension + tyre would be the same as it is now?

Currently: Stiff suspension, lots of movement in tyre
18" Wheels: Softer suspension, less movement in tyre

Overall it evens out so ride height will be largely unaffected?

Also if you go to 18" wheels then you can get some honking great brakes behind them - so stopping distances will decrease further (potentially decreasing overtaking opportunities).

Chuliandred · 1 Jun 2015, 12:08 (Ref:3543752)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Also if you go to 18" wheels then you can get some honking great brakes behind them - so stopping distances will decrease further (potentially decreasing overtaking opportunities).

Isn't braking limited by the tire grip and not the breaking potential of the breaks? Yeah already are able to lockup pretty easily.

Kempi · 1 Jun 2015, 12:23 (Ref:3543760)

It's easier to manage your braking before you lock up with larger Brakes.

JeremySmith · 5 Jun 2015, 20:35 (Ref:3545332)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

If more movement has to be designed into the suspension due to 18" wheels being used then the aero loads might have to be lessened I would think due to the minimum ride height rule.

So is a larger rim a good idea ?

It looked rather ugly to my eyes when I saw it on the car....

JeremySmith · 6 Jun 2015, 00:09 (Ref:3545385)

It seems no is the answer ....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119331

Casper · 6 Jun 2015, 01:16 (Ref:3545393)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

It seems no is the answer ....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119331

No surprise at all to me for the reason I mentioned. A car is designed around the wheel and tyre diameter and for them to change would require a big shift in design emphasis and it would be slower in lap times. For me it would be the right thing to do as a spectator but the management obviously not like it.

Oldtony · 6 Jun 2015, 06:13 (Ref:3545420)

Let's go back to Borani Wire spokes and a bloke with a big hammer to change them.

Seiously if F1 is to be seen as anything like hi-tech why are they sticking to those donuts. The 18"s provide the option for far more accurate control of suspension compliance, control and accuracy.
A new design challenge and maybe an opportunity to get rid of the purposely inferior rubber that Pirelli are being forced to supply at present.

Casper · 6 Jun 2015, 06:46 (Ref:3545425)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Let's go back to Borani Wire spokes and a bloke with a big hammer to change them.

Seiously if F1 is to be seen as anything like hi-tech why are they sticking to those donuts. The 18"s provide the option for far more accurate control of suspension compliance, control and accuracy.
A new design challenge and maybe an opportunity to get rid of the purposely inferior rubber that Pirelli are being forced to supply at present.

They are sticking to these donuts firstly because BE wants to and secondly because they realise the problems it will cause them and none want to lose the aero loading they currently have. You want wire wheels, I reckon bring back sliding skirts and let them get some real suspension loadings, Alan Jones gave it away because the cars had no suspension to allow the skirts to work and it was causing injuries to drivers.

ASCII Man · 7 Jun 2015, 14:41 (Ref:3545800)

I like the way 18" rims are being brought up as 'hi-tech' here...

Quite hilarious.

rustyfan · 17 Jun 2015, 06:07 (Ref:3551440)

Michelin has now entered the process:

Quote:

Michelin has submitted a proposal to become Formula 1's next tyre supplier, AUTOSPORT can confirm.

With the FIA's deadline for the tender process closing on June 17, Michelin and current supplier Pirelli appear set to go head to head for the three-year contract from 2017.

Speaking to AUTOSPORT, Michelin Motorsport director Pascal Couasnon said: "Yes, we have entered.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119527

Given the tires are way too hard already and Michelin has suggested they'd like to introduce even harder tires I hope they fail miserably in their bid to win the contract.

wnut · 17 Jun 2015, 11:22 (Ref:3551503)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Michelin has now entered the process:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119527

Given the tires are way too hard already and Michelin has suggested they'd like to introduce even harder tires I hope they fail miserably in their bid to win the contract.

You think?

The tyres should be capable of taking a race long beating.

**ScotsBrutesFan** · 17 Jun 2015, 14:10 (Ref:3551556)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

The tyres should be capable of taking a race long beating.

And if that's what Bernie wanted, Pirelli would do that. They are only producing the spec they were asked to.

chillibowl · 17 Jun 2015, 14:59 (Ref:3551571)

i dont remember 2005 being particularity good.

in terms of wanting to see sprints vs endurance formula, 2005 did not reward aggressive driving...in hindsight couldn't 2005 even be classified as the start of this 'conservation' era?

what i didnt like about long life tires is that a small mistake/early flatspot (in quali or the race) resulted in a a disproportional level of risk as we saw with Mr.Danger Raikkonen in Germany of that year. that risk forces drivers to put in conservative drives imo.

anyways what ever happened to a tire company trying to make the fastest tire possible, provide enough of them and let the teams figure out when to change them? none of us want to see (i hope) a race tire last as long as a road tire so there is no road relevance here.

S griffin · 17 Jun 2015, 15:17 (Ref:3551578)

The Nurburgring race that year kept us in edge til the end. And Alonso had tyre problems in Monaco and I seem to remember we got overtaking. That's right overtaking in Monaco, that's got to be worth it

chillibowl · 17 Jun 2015, 15:28 (Ref:3551582)

save brakes, save fuel also offers us the opportunity to see drivers nurse their cars to the finish line and cars conserving fuel at different rates allows for performance differences which theoretically is also supposed to encourage overtaking.

if we go back to long life tires, we can enjoy watching drivers save them too.

actually a bit curious now, what my feeling about the tires were back in 2005. i'll see if i can dig up that thread. hope my opinion hasent changed too much.

JeremySmith · 17 Jun 2015, 18:54 (Ref:3551629)

I would like to see Michelin versus Pirelli......

Mekola · 22 Jun 2015, 00:19 (Ref:3552859)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I would like to see Michelin versus Pirelli......

Me too. Two tyre suppliers are better than just one...

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