The same tyre for wet or dry. Too radical?

[alchemy]

How about us getting back to the real world and having a one type, possibly a one make ‘control’ tyre and that’s it! Come rain or come shine - one tyre. Not just F1, but all racing.

Just think how the engineers ingenuity could come forth. Not just the chassis designers, but the tyre manufacture technicians too. You never know we might even get some spin-off (pun slightly intended!) and feed back applicable for road tyres.

[Red]

The all-weather tyres is not a new idea. (oh yes Alchemy, the off-season could be fun )

Actually it goes back in 1997-8 when the grooves were adopted. (A quick note, the grooves idea had 2 aims: a) to slow the cars while cornering and b) to increase the braking zone and thus allowing more opportunities for overtakings) However it would increase the costs and the tyre manufacturers are not prepared to take the challenge.

[Red]

Oh yes... the uproar about grooves still rages... What do you think fans will say if a fully threaded tyre should be imposed..

[racer69]

That would take out some interest in the event of rain, who will battle on with dry's, who will pit for wets, when is the best time to etc....

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by racer69
That would take out some interest in the event of rain, who will battle on with dry's, who will pit for wets, when is the best time to etc....

I don't know, with rain, why should we hold our breath for tire strategy when we could watch cars wiggle and fishtail? What would you rather see on TV, a clever pitstop or powerslide?

[Lee Janotta]

Well, it's an idea that's not without merit...

But still, I'd rather have slicks back.

[Red]

Originally posted by paul-collins
What would you rather see on TV, a clever pitstop or powerslide?

Clever strategy. Actually with current Formula 1 cars powerslide means driving mistake. Even though it's fun to watch (whoa... great recovering, but what an idiot), I appreciate a driver who does not slide. Yeah, I know, sacrilege

[Glen]

Now that the grooved tyres are reportedly more grippy than the old slicks (and have also become much less nervous) what exactly drives this desire for the return of slicks?

[Red]

Who cares? But is chic. (oh, did I mention turbo and 70% less downforce? )

[alchemy]

Originally posted by Glen
Now that the grooved tyres are reportedly more grippy than the old slicks (and have also become much less nervous) what exactly drives this desire for the return of slicks?

At an F1 back-to-back ‘research’ test using grooved tyres against previous F1 style slicks, both with highly similar compounds. The old style slick was over a second a lap faster!

Any advance has come from other areas - not the tyres.

[Lee Janotta]

Slicks are more forgiving, Glen. The grooved tires have a ton of grip right up to the limit of adhesion, then suddenly it's like you're driving on ice. I don't know where you heard that they were less touchy.

Slicks, you can slide around more, and you've got a better chance of recovering if you push the car just a little too hard.

Besides, fat slicks as tall as a driver's torso look incredibly cool.

A lot also has to do with compound and sidewall construction... Hence the need for a spec tire.

[Glen]

Originally posted by alchemy
At an F1 back-to-back ‘research’ test using grooved tyres against previous F1 style slicks, both with highly similar compounds. The old style slick was over a second a lap faster!

Any advance has come from other areas - not the tyres.

Like I said - more grippy than the old slicks. They're trying to get speeds down, so over a second a lap quicker (using new compounds) wouldn't be very well thought of.

_

I didn't hear that they were less touchy - it's clear to see. Right from the beginning of this season we had occassions with wheel-to-wheel racing (yes, there were a few) that didn't have the usual consequences of a sudden snap into the gravel. Maybe the drivers have just got used to being more delicate.

I find it interesting that a lot of people want the cars to be harder to drive, but also the tyres to be easier.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Red
Actually with current Formula 1 cars powerslide means driving mistake.

I think it's more about current tires than current cars. (As alluded to in Lee's post about the forgiving nature of slicks)

This topic is about rain driving, too - where sliding is inevitable. It would certainly make F1 recognizable to those who watch Rally (or play video games), too.

BTW, Proper drifts still occur in CART. And I appreciate such visual car control much more than trying to figure out what exact sliding TGF is doing.

(I'm alluding to an article by Autosport this past summer that talked about his early turn-in style with slight drift. I've never been able to see it on TV, but I suspect that's just coverage problems.)

[Glen]

I do go along with the thought that one snag with modern F1 is that it's very hard to see the difference between driving styles on TV - but I stop short of calling for changes just to remedy this.

One very good thing that I have only seen once on TV was the superimposing of overhead angles of the same corner - this made the difference in line choice and style much more clear. You're right about Schumacher, for example, - he does take a slide into each and every corner... turning in early, on the brakes, braking very deep and not only dealing with the resultant oversteer but exploiting it to get the right attitude at the apex and hence the exit. Raikonnen does something similar and Jenson Button says he has adapted his style for a little oversteer on the brakes/turn-in.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by paul-collins
(I'm alluding to an article by Autosport this past summer that talked about his early turn-in style with slight drift. I've never been able to see it on TV, but I suspect that's just coverage problems.)

Actually Paul, I have seen this _once_... Watching a review of Melbourne '98, there's a quick shot of Shumacher going thru a turn with a gentle slide of the back end to the outside, and very visible tire marks.

Mind you, this was during qualifying, so he was _really_ pushing... And we all know he is prone to mistakes at the limit... But it looked to me to be controlled, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I won't say the man isn't talented. Not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but he's got some real skills.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Glen
what exactly drives this desire for the return of slicks?

Simple...... AESTHETICS

[Dutton]

I must admit I thoroughly enjoy all strategy aspects of racing very much, so I can survive comfortably enough with things as they are now. Ultimately i would like it to be as strategic as present, but with more "proper" racing as it were. The single tyre thing has been discussed over the last couple of years, but I'm not sure it would ever really happen. It would certainly remove a fair bit of the ambiguity as to the wet-weather hierarchy, but I love the variable given by rain when it occurs in the current situation.

The debate on slicks vs grooves. Alchemy, you bring the exmaple slicks being 1 second a fast lap faster. I would say remember that it is only one bit of research. Anyway, I would also say that the effect grooves had on the design of the cars cannot be underestimated: if you re-introduce slicks then costs will go up as a significant re-design would be required I would've thought. The biger teams would be the best positioned to benefit from this situation. If the grooves are more difficult to drive with should they not be kept, since we want more driver input as it were?

The comments about seeing the differences in driving style: I find with the terrestrial coverage that the best place to see the different lines is through chicanes like the final one at Imola. They put the camera low, looking across the width of it; that allows ample opportunity to see the different approachs. In fact, come to think of it, with most corners it can be seen if you look hard enough.

[Lee Janotta]

Well, the idea isn't to make the cars hard to drive for the sake of it, but rather to push the drivers to their limits. Slicks would give them a small cushion, but more importantly, it'd allow for variety in driving styles.

Since '98, driving with the rear of the car has been pretty much a losing proposition. Villeneuve's never been able to adapt. Montoya's rear tires have been coming apart in chunks this season.

Basically the cars are so sensative that the drivers can't drive them the way they want, as you could in years past. I doubt you could have found two drivers as disparate in their driving styles as the cooled and controlled Damon Hill, and the agressive curb-hopping, chicane-bombing Jacques Villeneuve.

But they both did very well with the Goodyear-shod FW18 in '96, each driving his own race the way he wanted to.

Today, with the FW24, you've got a similar situation with Zorro and Schu Jr... And every change to the car or tires that helps one hurts the other.

Of course the other significant factor in mechanical grip is track... Not the race surface, but the width between the tires. A wider track gives you more mechanical grip.

My feeling is make the cars faster down the straights, slower in the fast corners, and faster in the slow corners. Less downforce, more mechanical grip. Handling won't be butchered so badly when you're in another car's wake that way.

[alchemy]

Originally posted by Dutton
The debate on slicks vs grooves.

Dutton you and others are straying somewhat from the origins of this thread. It wasn’t a slicks versus grooved thing, but a debate on the virtues or otherwise of a one type all-weather tyre, i.e. a tyre to cope with all conditions.

As someone who has competed in both era’s of having a ‘one tyre’ come what may to the advent of the ‘wet/slicks’ variant (yes I’m an old git!) From a personal standpoint the advent of specific wet or dry tyres did little more than add another complication, and on occasion turn results into a bit of a lottery, which I’ve always hated. The outcome of a race should be just that. A race - and not by who got lucky on the day or even had the best strategy.

Strategy fanatics have chess or Nascar (zzzzzzz)!

[Lee Janotta]

Alchemy, I do totally agree with you on racing vs. strategy, and on-track action being _much_ better... I'm just trying to weigh the benefits of slicks against the benefits of not having tire changes in wet weather.... And it doesn't rain enough for me to give up on wanting slicks back.

[alchemy]

Lee Janotta, I would love to see slicks back too. Big fat mean mothers!!!!

I hate these F3 looking F1 cars….

[Glen]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Basically the cars are so sensative that the drivers can't drive them the way they want, as you could in years past. I doubt you could have found two drivers as disparate in their driving styles as the cooled and controlled Damon Hill, and the agressive curb-hopping, chicane-bombing Jacques Villeneuve. ...

Not true, Lee. You would be hard-pressed to find two drivers as different in style as Schumi and Rubens - but they seem to get by alright. Ditto DC and Kimi - DC likes a very stable rear and prefers understeer to oversteer, whereas Kimi likes the back to come round on him (a bit like Shumacher) and uses this entry/mid-corner oversteer to get the car in the right right line. The difference is that it's harder to see now, because the slides are relatively small. And of course many people are so convinced that they all drive like robots these days that they can't be bothered to examine the differences. The slides, the skill and the diffrerences are there - you just need to look harder.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Glen
The slides, the skill and the diffrerences are there - you just need to look harder.

Glen, you're the second one who's said this - and, while I know you're not trying to insult us, I find this attitude to be, well, elitist. It comes across as "well, I guess you just don't understand." If that's what I'm told about F1, then I guess I'm not likely to care anymore about it.

If the differences are there to be seen, then Bernie et al need to be showing this to us. That they're not leads the casual fan to believe that there are no differences, when in fact it's just poor production. Frankly, my only direct access to F1 is via TV, so if it's not shown on TV, then it doesn't exist (for me). And I know what I should be looking for, so if I'm not finding it, then it's not in the production.

Anyway, this seems to be pointing up a question - would it be better to change the tires to make it easier to see the car control, or improve the production to better highlight the different styles of car control? People at the track would likely be better able to see the differences in style, as they see all cars from one perspective, without swooping crane shots or whizzing camera shots to distract them.

Personally, I identify more with lurid powerslides - it reminds me of driving I once did (and in fact sometimes still do).

[Glen]

The TV needs to be better (I too am not prepared to pay for Bernie-vision) and we as fans need to have faith that it's worth bothering to look in th first place. When so many "fans" bang on endlessly about the skill having gone and the whole thing being pointless it has an effect - people believe it.

[Nicholas]

The tyre companies are very much against all-weather tyres, Max quite likes the idea but then he suggested a fifth groove early on last year...