Overtaking - it can happen

[Glen]

After such a fabulous race I reckon it's worth having yet another thread about the technicalities of overtaking in modern F1 - and here's why:

Most people seem convinced that modern aerodynamics make it impossible (or nearly) to follow a car through a high speed corner. Silverstone is all medium to high speed corners, and the car set-up is for high downforce. But we did see cars in very close company over many laps. I'm not saying that the areodynamics don't hinder - but they clearly don't prevent racing entirely. One thing that Silverstone does have going for it though is a very wide track.

The true reason, in my opinion, that there was plenty to see is that the grid was very mixed-up to start with - the conditions changed dramatically during the Saturday qualifying hour for example. If something happens to take out the predictability and consistency - qualifying shuffled-up; Renault and Toyota both going surprisingly quickly; Schumacher having an off-day; Rubens having an on-day... then you get the kind of racing that most people enjoy. The hard bit is figuring out how to introduce these rogue factors without the formula appearing artificial.

[PaulSands]

The current qualifying rules are and attempt to do that...imagine if the upside grid from the Friday at Magny Cours had actually happened on the Saturday

[BootsOntheSide]

To really get overtaking under the new system of the cars being the same at the start of the race as at the end of qualifying, it does need the order to be shuffled, in other words, cars to start behidn ones they are faster than. Changing conditions and qualifying lap mistakes are the most likely cause of that.

Sadly, Silverstone will prove to be a rarity, I doubt we'll set another dry-weather race that exciting for a couple of years. Unless Bernie's Random Track-Crossing Nutter or random sprinkler systems are introduced for 2003, taht is.

[PaulSands]

Bernies random overnight Parc Ferme loosening of body work parts a la DC

[Adam43]

I was thinking of doing a very similar thread. It is difficult to point to anything that was different about Silverstone compared to other tracks. The only (slight thing) I can think of is the head wind down Hanger making slipstreaming more important.

It is interesting to note that Rubens said it was difficult to overtake before the event. Afterwards he still said that this place was normally difficult to overtake on.

The mixed up grid did mean that people had to overtake, although I'm not sure this was down to the new fuel rules. More that the circuit seemed to get (a little) slower as the session went on (this was attributed to a wind change by some). Of course a couple of safety cars helps mix things up too.

Another interesting point is that there was overtaking between drivers that were not that different in speed. i.e. it wasn't Ferraris and BARs all day. There was overtaking between Williams/McLarens/Ferraris(/Renaults).

Ultimately I think we were just lucky. Everyone had there head screwed on and allowed each other room etc... (they were racers, well most of them ).

The width of Silverstone is important, obviously, but normally it still doesn't make for overtaking. People are too far back on the run out of Becketts on to hanger. By the time they get to Stowe they have only just caught up. This area has always been key. A lot of the overtaking was a result of comprimising the guy ahead into Stowe even if you don't actually get past until later in the lap, say Bridge!

For some reason this year, it seemed possible to be able to be close enough out of Becketts to challenge into Stowe. The width of Stowe and the rest of the track enabled you to push home your advantage of making the other guy go off line.

[Peter Mallett]

My thoughts go somewhat like yours Adam. But where did the grip come from into Abbey and again into Bridge?

There were cars diving all over the place at those two corners.

Stowe hasn't changed for years and yet we had those fights for position but again, the difference was that getting them off line there opened them up at Abbey.

All very strange but great to watch.

[Glen]

I think the grooved tyres are getting better and better - more and more forgiving and progressive. This started from the beginning of last year.

Another point, about the width of the track: even if the extra width doesn't provide a useful place to go (in terms of a fast line) it still gives the drivers the confidence to push - it's like having loads of tarmac run-off everywhere; it's a long way from the apex to the outside... lots of space to make mistakes without completely binning the race.

The new fuel rules don't make all the difference, but single lap certainly does. Not only does it produce unpredicatable results, but driver skill and bravery play a central role (as well as weather and track conditions).

[Jay]

Silverstone is one of the best tracks on the circuit for overtaknig, but besides that the biggest reason for so much of it was that the field was very out of order after the second safety car period. If it hadn't been for the safety cars it would have been a lot more processional.

[golem]

Yeah, bravery is a huge part of it. Hell, it's the first thing needed really, isn't it? Not enough couragefor the move, then no move. So to speak.

Another thing that might have given things a helping hand is this being a higher speed course, the reliance on aero is less. They pull off wing in an effort to get the cars faster down the straights. This creates a lower % reliance on aero rather than mechanical grip. Which in turn also might result in less turbulance too.

[gttouring]

the safety car at odd times causes lots of this action by bunching the whole parade up, this is the bane of IRL when they have 'debris' cautions and go to a commercial and have the whole field lined up for a restart. I hop e no one would suggest random safety car periods to 'liven' things up
that is a poor idea.
This still leads to questions of Aero effects and tyre grips. Do we want to make the wings all single element, and get wide slick tyres? no we have more power than the car can use, so will it help? This seems as if it would make overtakeing more possible. Horror of horrors CART wants a boost button to add more 'passing power' to the cars, so i im agine F1 might ave to do something about this to make that silverstone magic happen more often
the race was a cracker

[Glen]

Originally posted by golem
Another thing that might have given things a helping hand is this being a higher speed course, the reliance on aero is less. They pull off wing in an effort to get the cars faster down the straights. This creates a lower % reliance on aero rather than mechanical grip. Which in turn also might result in less turbulance too.

Don't think so - Silverstone is a high downforcce set-up. They take a little wing off for the race to reduce the danger of being overtaking, since conventional overtaking is down the straights.

[Lee Janotta]

Glen, I agree with you to a point on the tires. I saw a lot of cars drifting just a little bit coming through Woodcote. A sight for sore eyes.

But it's the weird circumstances which really produced the overtaking.

Rubens and Juan were the guys making the big moves, and I think quite a bit of that comes down to balls. They just wanted it more! If you _don't_ want it that badly, then you end up with a situation like Kimi's. Look how long he was stuck behind DaMatta, in a MUCH faster car than the Toyota. It took kamikaze moves like Juan and Rubens were making all day to get anywhere through this field.

Maybe that's the way it should be.

Though I suspect that those two were running a bit extra front downforce as well, for their cars to be so agile in traffic, and to be able to hold onto compromised lines through Bridge.

Still, ten years ago, this would've been considered a slightly above-average race. But to us, it's the greatest race in the last decade. So yes, I still think the high noses and the mandated raised front wings in the rules both look stupid and hurt overtaking. So there.

[Glen]

Where do you buy those rose-tinted nostalgia spectacles Lee?

My argument is that the experience of this race proves the aero argument wrong (or imperfect) - the circuit is exactly the kind of circuit that is supposed to make this effect worse, and it didn't.

[Peter Mallett]

So are we saying, "small wings big slicks?"

[Glen]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
So are we saying, "small wings big slicks?"

No - we're saying: If you can't get overtaking without small wings & big slicks what was going on on Sunday? We're saying: There's not much wrong with the technical side of things - the reason that there isn't normally any overtaking is that the car isn't in front to be overtaken... it's nomally in front and pulling away!

[ralf fan]

Think the reason was because after the second safety car the slower cars were upfront so the pack was closely bunched together.Also some guys were on 3 stops others were on 2 so the lighter guys went faster .

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Glen
Where do you buy those rose-tinted nostalgia spectacles Lee?

Actually, they're a blue tint. I think you can get them from Duke video, but I got them for free by watching Senna, Prost, Mansell, Berger and Alesi dice with each other when I was a kid.

My argument is that the experience of this race proves the aero argument wrong (or imperfect) - the circuit is exactly the kind of circuit that is supposed to make this effect worse, and it didn't.

Well, the front side of the circuit is where most of the speed is, and no one was able to keep close to the car in front through the Maggots-Beckets-Chapel complex, so no passes under braking into Stowe.

Nearly all the passes came across the track, in low-speed dicing in the Abbey chicane, or with kamikaze moves at Bridge, which is not a place you're not supposed to be able to pass... So that one's weird.

At Abbey, they didn't need any high-speed grip. They'd come out of that stupid chicane at the end of Vale at a near stop, accelerate flat-out through club, where they'd have more grip than they need, and keep it flat to the floor until the braking zone for Abbey. It's more down to horsepower, braking, and getting a good launch out of that Vale chicane.

With Bridge, you're coming out of Abbey, again nearly at a dead stop, and accelerating into Bridge... Picking up an awful lot of speed in the process, then you grit your teeth and dive under the bridge. I think you've got to be at least a bit insane to try and pass on either the inside or the outside line there, especially without lifting.

But little or no passing at Copse, Stowe, or Vale. Two of those are faster corners, but also traditional overtaking spots. So there's a problem, because _those_ are the corners where aero is important.

And you're right, the argument's not perfect. Neither is the general relativety theory, but they both work.

[jackyo123]

3 reasons I can think of that made overtaking at Silverstone possible this year -

1 - super sticky tires, thanks to the tire war, has caused an enormous increase in mechanical grip, and has titled the 'aero vs. mechanical' grip race more to the mechanical side (relatively speaking) than it was 1 year ago.

2 - wide track with many lines possible. Silverstone is a relatively wide track, with different lines into corners possible

3 - VERY windy day - the huge headwinds on the straights on Sunday made slipstreaming even more effective than normal, as was evidenced by onboard camera shots.

[Glen]

Well I used to watch Senna, Prost, Mansell, Berger and Alesi - and I wasn't even a kid at the time. Thing is Lee, you only remember the good bits.

My argument is that if you change the aero you still have the real problem - the car in front is faster and therefore you can't overtake it. You also mke another problem worse, which is rules stability... all the time the rules remain stable the other teams start to catch up - and if they can get on the same straight they can think about overtaking.

Also - you're expecting the impossible if you want a circuit where overtaking is feasible all the way round! Of course there are some areas better than others.

[Gaz]

Totally agree with Glen. At the end of the day if say Schumacher has qualified on pole it would tend to say that he is the quickest guy. On this basis in the race he should be the quickest and therefore wouldn't be overtaken.

It was the randomness of the grid and the second safety car period that really helped although both Barrichello and Montoya produced awesome moves against cars of a similar speed.

There's too many drivers out there who play percentages rather than go balls out for wins that's another problem. If you had a grid of Montoya's, Wilson's, Barrichello's and Schumachers you'd see some exciting racing

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Glen
We're saying: There's not much wrong with the technical side of things - the reason that there isn't normally any overtaking is that the car isn't in front to be overtaken... it's nomally in front and pulling away!

I think there is a bit of both sides. It is not as clear cut as is suggested.

Firstly Silverstone 2003 is not normal, even with mixed order.

Also any aid in reducing the aero effect will help because it will mean that you don't have to have such a level of superiorness to challenge if you are stuck behind (and at more circuits).

[paulzinho]

Overtaking can happen when its all mixed up, which doesn't happen all that often.

F1's problem is that of what happenned in canada, cars can't pass because of aero, mechanical problems.

If you'd put a gearstick in the cars i'm almost certain we'd have seen overtaking at the processional races. Oh and big slicks just look sexy!

[jetsetter]

I'm a believer that the overtaking was caused by the second safety car period which caused the order to be extremely mixed with Toyota's & a Jordan up the pointy end & guys like the Schumacher's having to overtake to get in to the points. Unfortunately unless we see another unbelievable incident like Sunday's i don't think we'll see that much overtaking in a G.P. for some time.

[golem]

If the car in front is faster, why do we have people tailing cars forever in some races. Canada and Monaco for example.

I know in Canada Low-Aero High-Tyre grip would have helped Ralf pass, though again Cojones was a major issue. Monaco is mostly down to track width. Just too narrow for the most part.

I don't think it's deniable that the aero side of things alters matters mid corner. Ask anyone who does windtunnel testing work for MacLaren. It makes following someone just that much more difficult. Yes, the tyres keep getting better so, that increases your tyre grip % while in Aero, they're usually chasing downforce efficiency not necassarily outright downforce. It's reducing the factor slowly.
Maybe you are right that now it's become less of a factor?

What I would like to see changed is the tracks mostly. We've seen years of incredible development on the cars, but nothing like it on road and race surfaces and layouts. Safety has gotten better but what about things like split sections (Chicanes that split the road down the centre) and things like that?

Also, surface types and compounds that produce better off line grip %. I've heard that can be a factor in overtaking.

Finally, reduce the motors to 2.5 V8's. I get a feeling even 2.2 litres would be plenty really. I just have a feeling that it would help the racing a little.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by golem
Also, surface types and compounds that produce better off line grip %. I've heard that can be a factor in overtaking.

Yes this would help, but I'm not sure how easy it is to do significantly.

Finally, reduce the motors to 2.5 V8's. I get a feeling even 2.2 litres would be plenty really. I just have a feeling that it would help the racing a little.

Lots of grip and less power does not aid overtaking IMHO. Take F3, too much grip, too little power. Even consider the restrictor plate races in NASCAR (although that is a little different).