Series Cull

[ss_collins]

In the UK there are simply too many race series and to be honest some need to be dropped/ amalgamated. Which ones and why?

ones I think should go

750 Formula - has to go as its only going to get smaller - amalgamate with Sports 1000 (all the 750 cars can be easily converted to Sports 1000 quite cheaply too.

Road Saloons / Stock Hatch amalgamated (monster series!!)

Formula 4 / BARC single seaters / BRDC single seaters amalgamated into a open sigle seater series.

Focus Cup / all fiesta / XR series amalgamate with Ford Saloons

Formula Honda - have an open bike engined single seater class

Mod Prod - into open saloons

Formula Woman, SCV8, Challenge initiative, should not be granted permits IMHO.

Opinions - questions over my sanity??

VSR - drop it - cars to open sports saloons

Super Siloettes - drop it - as above

[Ian Sowman]

Don't quite see how BRDC Single Seaters, which is effectively an extension of the 'school' series would really fit in with F4 and the BARC (SE?) championship. The combined Ford championship would need at least a couple of races per meeting, which begs the question - why bother combining them.

F Honda seems to do quite well on its own, especially now there are two classes. The rest I would broadly agree with though.

[Tim Falce]

VSR - drop it - cars to open sports saloons
Nice one, that'll just make the sports saloons even more unequal and uncompetetive than it already is.

[ss_collins]

falce some reg changes to make the racing better - maybe handicaps...

Vee and Stock Hatch have twin races...

[jamescrofts]

The ones I would drop are the following:

Formula Renault, Formula BMW and the SEAT racing rivals!

to be replaced by Formula MG1400/1800 and MG ZR180's

get rid of the foriegn junk!

[jamescrofts]

and get rid of TOCA!

[ss_collins]

JC - you forget that I'm German when it comes to competition cars - I've only ever driven two races without a german engine.

[jamescrofts]

Hi Sam,

Formula BMW is unwanted;it just too expensive! We should be promoting British car makers! The SEAT racing ****s would be the top of my cull list. What do you have against Formula Woman?

[ss_collins]

its a new series that simply isn't needed. Formula BMW - time will tell on that one... I'm willing to watch it if it goes rubbish then whack it in with the open bike engined cars.

[jamescrofts]

Originally posted by ss_collins
its a new series that simply isn't needed. Formula BMW - time will tell on that one... I'm willing to watch it if it goes rubbish then whack it in with the open bike engined cars.

Agreed!

James

[graeme]

Porsche Carrera Cup - this week's Autosport lists the top six drivers from the series - I wasn't aware there was six drivers in the series...!

[El_Gibleto]

Formula Renault and Formula BMW etc exist because those manufacturers see the value of using motorsport as part of their brands marketing mix. The MG/Rover group (or whatever its called this week) dnt have the funds avalable to have a series at that high a level, indeed they don't even know if they can afford a btcc effort for next year.

SCV8 is designed to provide a very attractive alternative to the btcc and other series. Remember the people behind SCV8 have a very good background and history of success in their field. Unlike the challenge inititive, which was a rehashing of a concept that failed almost 30 years ago, lead by one of the principles of the failed concept.

[vaughan jones]

the 3 ford championships all have around 20 cars most races, the xr3i/xr2 is one for the best keep secrets in club racing,a class winning xr3 can be bought for around 2000. Cheaper than stock hatch.

[Tony_Simpson]

In my opinion……

The 750formula with the sports1000 could be done but the speed differential with the sports 1000 might not make it work. Could be done though.

The open single seater championship is called the Monoposto series, and caters caters for everything. The other series should be merged into the Mono series, although as they already have 3 races at most meetings they do not really need that many more cars.

Putting the Ford's all in one race could easily be done, but with 8 (a guess) classes things could get complicated (rules etc, etc), but it should be done.

Formula Honda is strong enough as it is; they have had 20+ cars out for most of the year.

As for the VSR/super silhouettes, they should all be run in one race with multiple classes, and they then should get a nice grid size out of them.

As for the merging of Road saloons and stock Hatch. No way will this ever happen. The road saloons are that in name only (yes I know they still have there interior in them). Both series run similar rules on brakes, suspension, but the engines in the Road Saloons well... you do not have a grand’s+ worth of forged crank and rods in a Stock Hatch. The engines bare more resemblance to a Hot Hatch racer.

The Road saloons should (and its been said in here before) be merged with the Mod Prod saloons. That would create a good series, with no more differences in speed from fastest to slowest than there is already. It would create a ladder for people to progress though from the basic car (no engine mods) though to a car fully sorted on the handling front, then they car play with the engine when funds allow. Of course there are a few more issues to be resolved.

[JimW]

I would like to see any series which cannot raise a full grid of cars, given a serious examination for corrective action. (Full grid means perhaps more than 90% of the smallest grid at any of the circuits they are going to use.)

New series - give them a year. Special cases - agree in advance their intention and make them live up to that.

Make sure that meetings have a balance. The sport can live with one thin race per meeting but five is tedious.

Accept no arguments about amalgamation to make decent numbers. Many people watching don't care who is winning or scoring points. Its the vroom that does it.

Shorten circuits. (Or use the short version of existing ones in all cases unless reserves are guaranteed). Look at how much fun can be had at Mallory. (And Brands Indy circuit). Not just a decent track but whatever there is going on - you can see it.

Why Formula BMW? - Because someone is putting in a fair bit of money. But then I contradict myself as I would like to see Formula Seat canned unless they can be made to drive decently. And that means without careless or reckless contact. Sure it is not my money so why am I bothered? Because bad examples spread through the sport - just remember the effect of the BTCC on driving standards. I don't mean to be exclusive about this. One of the best races I saw at Mallory was when the local short circuit oval series had a day there. The Lightening Rods were superb and raced without any significant body damage that I saw. Well disciplined and a good race. If people who normally race on tiny oval circuits can do it, why not everyone?

Regards

Jim

[johnw]

[B}And that means without careless or reckless contact. Sure it is not my money so why am I bothered? Because bad examples spread through the sport - just remember the effect of the BTCC on driving standards.[B]

Spot on Jim.
I have come to accept that the BTCC is condoned as a contact sport (SEAT's too by the sound of it?). That's fine as the manufacturers foot the bill - or it is until someone is killed following needless contact. I believe that there should be a clear differentiation between these series and club motorsport. The Blue book clearly defines driving standards and I thought that we are all governed by that.

So what do we do about it? CofC's say that they cannot act without observers reports, marshals point to a dwindling number of observers - and to the fact that nothing appears to happen as a result of report, making the whole thing a useless exercise.

My day at Donington was an eye opener. I hadn't realised that you guys receive no feedback on the results of your reports. This is easily fixed. Mandate that race control or the Clerk or whomever it is, is obliged to let you know the result of each investigation, the penalty applied or the reason for there being no action. I think that you and we drivers would all learn from this transparency.
Who needs to make this happen?

[vaughan jones]

Why should all the ford championships be combined,they run to different rules, ranging from fully modified to group N,slick tyres to control tyres,leave them alone, they are not doing harm to you. get on with culling dying championships if you have to !!!

[Woolley]

I wouldn't pick on particular series, but I agree there is a desperte need to consolidate the racing into fewer series. There are way too many undersupported series spread across too many meeting. I reckon we can get club racing down to a dozen categories each for SS, Saloons and Sportscars. This would increase the fun factor for everyone - spectators, drivers, marshals and organisers. If there's too many entries for any series you can always have extra races (as for FVee at the moment) ensuring extra value for money and full grids.

Professional motorsport should be dealt with even more drastically, as the talent/money pool is even more thinly spread. All levels should be multi-chassis/engine and strictly regulated. If manufacturers want to promote a single make, then they'd better be prepared to subsidise the drivers and guarantee a fund for the champions to move up into higher series. In my opinion there's space for a non-slicks and wings category (FF or equivalent), one with slicks and wings and a little more power (FR), more power and longer races (F3). Saloons need a manufacturer series (BTCC) based on road cars, alower spec series for cars closer to road spec (not one make) maybe a couple of single make if the manufacturers would subsidise them) and finally a 'beasty' category for something heavy and excessively powerul (SCV8 may be it, but somthing akin to Aussie V8s). Finally sportscars need GTs for sprint (up to 1hr) catering for modified road vehicles, purpose built racers (including Porshes) and full blown GTs all in one series, and two open toppers - something like Radicals, but not one make - and a proper endurance series for the two LM classes.

Anything else is a waste of resources.

Just my opinion.

Oh, and an 'all invited' party for competitors/teams/marshals & officials on the Saturday night of all two day meetings.

Just a dream, of course, doubt any of it will ever happen, because British motorsport (well, and international) is too much controlled by vested interests.

[Red Dog]

ss collins Do you have something against the 750mc?

Why would 750 Formula drivers want to convert to s1000?

It is not as easy as you seem to think. And the S1000 field is rather on the small side at the moment, don't you think?

A small point about 750F is that it's the longest running formula, bar none, and is the reason the 750 club was started, something the club might want to keep. And since the Fiat engine was introduced so successfully there is good reason for it to continue.

[R59]

Originally posted by Tony_Simpson
In my opinion……

The 750formula with the sports1000 could be done but the speed differential with the sports 1000 might not make it work. Could be done though.

Nope, don't agree. Leave the 750 formula alone. Sports1000 has potential for growth, and they have pushed hard for their own rung on the ladder. 750Formula is historic, and has a hardy group of followers. I wouldn't say it's shrinking. It's fairly stagnant.

snip...

Putting the Ford's all in one race could easily be done, but with 8 (a guess) classes things could get complicated (rules etc, etc), but it should be done.

Then with all of the Fords in one race, errr... we'd need 40 car grids at least, and two races per meeting. Nope, seem to be back at square one.

Formula Honda is strong enough as it is; they have had 20+ cars out for most of the year.

As for the VSR/super silhouettes, they should all be run in one race with multiple classes, and they then should get a nice grid size out of them.

The VSR's and Super Silhouettes could all run in one race, but there is a fair differential between their laptimes which could prove to be troublesome.

As for the merging of Road saloons and stock Hatch. No way will this ever happen. The road saloons are that in name only (yes I know they still have there interior in them). Both series run similar rules on brakes, suspension, but the engines in the Road Saloons well... you do not have a grand’s+ worth of forged crank and rods in a Stock Hatch. The engines bare more resemblance to a Hot Hatch racer.

As a former Road Saloon Register member, the Road Saloons can be quite well sorted internally. Steel cranks, forged rods & pistons, solid lifters, etc... but externally standard, ie: std inlet and exhaust manifolds, std brakes, std type suspension, though springs & dampers can be uprated, and FULL trim, and driven to and from the circuit, no trailers.

Once apon a time in the past, the Road Saloon Register ran the two best supported multi-make series' in the UK. But thanks to rule meddling, only Road Saloons survives (just), with Super Road Saloons turned from 100 registered competitors with 2 full grids, to skin of it's teeth inside 3 years.

Stock and Hot Hatches are so well subscribed that they don't need any mergers.

The Road saloons should (and its been said in here before) be merged with the Mod Prod saloons. That would create a good series, with no more differences in speed from fastest to slowest than there is already. It would create a ladder for people to progress though from the basic car (no engine mods) though to a car fully sorted on the handling front, then they car play with the engine when funds allow. Of course there are a few more issues to be resolved.

Modprods and Road Saloons in the same racer? ERrr no. Again, too many differences, they'd have to run in separate races, which makes the idea of a merger a waste of time.

Not long back, Tim Dodwell, the man behind the Road Saloons many years back, tried in vain to resurrect the old ideals of Road Saloons, but didn't get very far. It'd be a shame to see it die, but all good things come to an end eventually.

Modprods is having trouble keeping up it's numbers at times, but popular circuits get better grids. Shame that nobody wants to go to Cadwell, yet it's probably one of the best driver's circuits in the country, just that the facilities are awful.

That's saloons put into perspective, but single seaters need a good shake up too. The idea of the regional series' are the best way to go, and junk the national "historic" championships (pre-90 etc..). Have a northern Festival, a southern Festival, and then pitch the best against eachother in a national Festival at Silverstone, or Donington, or similar.

Then there are the other non-FF series', I personally think that we should move back to the old Fomula Libre setup, where if it's got wheels, it's in! Then have a class structure to keep as many happy as possible, play with weights to equalise performance, maybe engine restrictors too. Top class has to be F5000!!!

Enough from me.

Who's next?

Rob

[greenamex2]

Having a vested interest -

Mod prods into open saloons? Whole heartedly agree. I have been pushing for the removal of the 'eligible car list' and will find out on Friday what has got through. Didn't help that the BARC gave rediculously short notice for and reg change proposals.

Road Saloons - I have been following this closely this year (mostly because it contains the only other Corolla racing in the country). It's numbers were low and it spent all year being merged with the Extreme Mini's (4-6 entries) and 'Production Saloons' (0-3-0 entries). It really does need something doing to it. I would favour a merge with the Mod Prods as they wouldn't need that much spending on them to be competitive. As some of their old cars are running in and winning our series now, and I have previously raced with some of their cars in the old Super Road Saloons, I AM speaking with the voice of experience.

However I can understand that the drivers may already be overstretched and couldn't afford the extra 'toys' (mainly carbs/injection, wider wheels and bigger brakes) so perhaps stock/hot hatches would be a better bet for most of them.

Rob - Looking over the lap times for Road Saloons I couldn't see a problem with running the series concurrently with Mod Prods. Their fastest cars would be midfield, their slowest cars aren't that much slower than our slower ones.

[Asp]

Originally posted by racing59
The VSR's and Super Silhouettes could all run in one race, but there is a fair differential between their laptimes which could prove to be troublesome.

That happened at Oulton earlier this year. The original plan was to have a heat for each; then a combined final. However (I assume due to grid size), they ran 3 combined races. And they were actually pretty good - especially further back in the field. And there wasn't a major problem with the speed difference either.

[Mark Mitchell]

Get rid of the separate Mini championships (Super Mighty and Extreme have the smallest grids) and put 'em all together. Cracking potential!

[greenamex2]

With all the above ideas we could go from a dozen+ half empty series to half a dozen series with near full grids.

Every body still gets to race, the crowds would be happier and the only 'losers' I can work out would be the clubs losing a few members, this could be minimised with some sensible swapping.

Everybody would be happy.

Accept they probably won't and even if they were it wouldn't happen due to vested interest.

Hey ho.

[ascarracinguk]

scv8...should be killed....should never have been born...its just diluting grids....i wouldnt mind if the cars were touring cars....but its another championship we can do without