Changes to Flag Rules...any comments?

[275 GTB-4]

RECOMMENDATION FOR CHANGES TO APPENDEX H
Victorian Flagmarshalling team

It is the opinion of the Victorian Flagmarshalling team that the present flag rules are inadequate.
The points of interest are
The lack of a low-level warning using the standalone STATIONARY YELLOW FLAG.
The lack of clear forewarning for the DOUBLE WAVED YELLOW FLAG
The lack of a STATIONARY BLUE FLAG as a forewarning of a faster car approaching a slower car before passing it.
In correct use of the WAVED BLUE FLAG to signal a passing move when the car is to close
That the WAVED BLUE FLAG has different meaning for racing and practice.
The changes were caused by the adoption in part, of the formula 1 rules. The formula 1 rules did not work properly from the day of their instigation. This was proved by the use of the “MIRROR POINTS.” The main point waived a yellow flag, and the mirror point mirrored the signal.
As we all know, formula 1 cars have better braking, acceleration, and handling than any class we run in Australia.

Having seen a document called “Specific Regulations for Car Racing” from the UK and similar documentation from New Zealand, it would appear that we are in a minority group going our own way what ever reason can be put forward for change of appendix H;. It would appear to have nothing to do with the safety of the drivers or Officials. The removal of ANY forewarning flag is a serious backward step and should be redressed.

As can be seen by the attached recommendations, there are three levels of yellow flag signals, The return of the stationary blue flag, and the blue flag has the same meaning on all days.

Browsing through the manual shows a few references to the flag signals in other areas. These have been bought into line with the suggested new rules. People who are considering this proposal will most likely say that these are old rules that were in use some years back, At least in those days a Flagmarshall was able to do his or her job. It might also be said, that drivers were not taking much notice of the yellow flags.

At the recent Phillip Island meeting, during the MG race, a front runner started at rear of grid. Everybody had known that his car would be coming through. But,driver's in the heat of the battle sometimes forget these things and need reminding. Because of the wording of the flag rules the flagmarshalls hands were tied. The Marshall’s in the area of the above incident, and a new driver doing his eight hour stint on the flag point, feel that a stationary blue flag would have saved the incident.
At a past GTP meeting at Sandown, a driver was heard to say, during a TV interview, that’ it had been a good race. Slower drivers had gotten out of the way’ . I wonder if why, could it have been those illegal Blue Flags?.

It is also of the opinion of the VFT that if the new rules are adopted, there is no need of extra flag signals. If the yellow flag infringements are inforced, why would you need more signals? The Victorian Flagmarshalls Team request that very serious consideration be given to the attached Appendix H proposal. We feel that the safety of all trackside personnel and drivers is at stake and that the rules will be a further step in this direction.

The Following are the rules as now listed and proposed changes.

Means
111.a Under the protection of the relevant signals they shall see that any car stopping in their section of track is pushed to the side of the track without re starting the engine

Revised Rule
111.a Under the protection of the relevant signals they shall see that any car stopping in their section of the track is pushed to the side of the track. If the car starts its engine, with the aid of the push, race control will be informed of the “push start” and take what ever (if any) action is needed.

Comment
If the car was push started and drove off, it would mean that the section of track would be clear, and not have a car that would require Safety Car intervention to move it. Or at the very least the car could be directed to a safe position under its own power. Even some of the light cars are hard to push.

Addition at the end of 3.1(1)
The other position for these three flags shall be stated in the event Supplementary Regulations. These signals will have the same meaning as at start / finish line.

Comment
Most drivers are aware of the placement of this “Black Flag Relay” point, but it would help new drivers.

3.1.2.b YELLOW FLAG

The yellow flag is a signal for danger, and will be shown in one of three ways.
A SINGLE STATIONARY. yellow flag, do not overtake, form single line.

Comment
If a vehicle has stopped of the track, but is near the track, it has the potential to be involved in a nasty incident, especially if a car tries a passing move and stuffs it up big time. at least this signal will give the driver some warning that all is not well ahead. At the end of this section of the track. The driver should see a green flag indicating that all is clear. However they could see a waved yellow flag.

A SINGLE WAVED yellow flag , reduce speed, do not overtake, there is a hazard partially on the track ahead. The point preceding the waved yellow flag will be displaying a single stationary yellow.

Comment
The waved flag says this is were the action is ,that all the track is not available for use,i.e. a car spun and ended up half on and half off the track, the drivers must take extra care. Passing in this area could end up with a collision.

TWO WAVED YELLOW flags, a VERY appreciable reduction in speed must be shown, do not overtake, be prepared to change to change direction or STOP. There is a hazard blocking more than half the track i.e. two (or more) cars have collided, extra care must be taken, as there may be officials on the track trying to clear the incident. If this incident is blocking the track almost completely, it is possible that the RED flag could be shown. The point preceding the two waved yellow flags will be displaying two stationary yellow flags.

Comment
The important word in this rule is, the drivers must make a VERY APPREACIABLE reduction in speed. Not so long ago Michael Schumaker said that we should have a “PEOPLE FLAG “. A car can only move in a limited direction, but a human can change direction over a range of 360 degrees. Do we need more flags? We need drivers who will slow down. Maybe we add to 3 DRIVERS MUST USE FIRST GEAR IN THIS AREA. Maybe the stewards will have to be more sever for double yellow flag infringements, The safety of officials is Paramount.


At the end of the section of the track covered by any of the above three signals, a WAVED GREEN FLAG will be shown at the next clear flag point to indicate racing may resume. Once a driver has passed any yellow flag, be it waved or stationary, there is no passing or resumption of racing until the WAVED GREEN flag has been PASSED.

Comment
This is self–explanatry. Note the word “passed”

THE BLUE FLAG IS A PASSING FLAG

When the BLUE FLAG is being held MOTIONLESS it is a warning that a faster car is approaching, The Marshall feels that a passing manoeuvre is likely to occur in the next section of track.
Drivers should check their mirrors, be aware of the location of the faster car, and position themselves so as not to obstruct this faster car.
A Marshall stationed in the pit lane exit and only seen by the driver exiting the pits, can use a motionless blue flag as a warning to the driver{s} that “cars are approaching on the track, rejoin with care.
When the blue flag is waved it is a warning that a faster car(s) wants to pass the slower car(s) that received the Waved blue flag. Drivers must hold there line and not make any sudden change of direction. Thus allowing the overtaking cars to find there own way passed the slower cars.

Comment
The steady blue is used to fore warn the driver of a slower car of the approaching faster car. Drivers that are dicing and not concentrating on faster cars behind them will now be able to react before the faster car is upon them. Much safer.
The steady blue has been used to tell drivers exiting the pits that a car is approaching on the track. It is usually used on a special point that is seen only by the driver rejoining the race. A good extra safety signal.


The Flag marshals are there to keep the drivers safe not issue instructions


NOTE
IT is not necessary to display the blue flag;

During the first laps of a sprint race when the cars are still grouped together
When two or more equally matched drivers are racing wheel to wheel for several laps
When a driver is obviously aware that he is going to be passed( either because he moves out of the way or signals to the other driver.)
As soon as yellow or green flag is displayed on that flagpoint (passing is forbidden between yellow And green flags)
It is however essential to show the blue flag;
In case of obvious obstruction
When slower cars are being overtaken by lapping cars
When a faster car is starting at the back of the field, from pit lane, or has stalled at the start

In dry weather, the blue flag must be used with discretion. However, in damp weather when rearward vision is poor due to the spray, the blue flag is essential

These notes are all commonsense and can only increase safety of the drivers

[Woolley]

It looks like you've sufferred what nearly happened here. The MSA attmpted to introduce FIA signals to all races in this country, but the marshals rebelled and it never happened, so we still do staionaries, etc. I'm convinced we are safer as a result. Good luck with your excellently described signals.

[73_Gstock]

275:

I don't know if you want to look at American flagging rules, but here's a few links.

the first is the North American Unified Flagging System which is used for 'Pro' races such as ALMS, GARRA, World Challenge. It is a mix if FIA and SCCA club rules.

http://www.michiganturnmarshals.org/...gingSystem.doc

The second files are the rules used for club events run by the SCCA. It uses waved yellows, stationary yellows, stationary blues, and no green flag after a yellow.

Here's a word copy:
http://www.michiganturnmarshals.org/...STER%20MSW.doc

Let me know if you have any questions.

and in pdf:
http://www.michiganturnmarshals.org/...STER%20PDF.pdf

There's also been a few discussions on SCCA related pages about teh difference between club and NAUFS rules which can be found here:

http://www.scca.org/garage/forum/for...p?TID=232&PN=1
http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultima...hp/topic/43/68

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by 73_Gstock
275:

I don't know if you want to look at American flagging rules, but here's a few links.

the first is the North American Unified Flagging System which is used for 'Pro' races such as ALMS, GARRA, World Challenge. It is a mix if FIA and SCCA club rules.

http://www.michiganturnmarshals.org/...gingSystem.doc

The second files are the rules used for club events run by the SCCA. It uses waved yellows, stationary yellows, stationary blues, and no green flag after a yellow.

Here's a word copy:
http://www.michiganturnmarshals.org/...STER%20MSW.doc

Let me know if you have any questions.

and in pdf:
http://www.michiganturnmarshals.org/...STER%20PDF.pdf

There's also been a few discussions on SCCA related pages about teh difference between club and NAUFS rules which can be found here:

http://www.scca.org/garage/forum/for...p?TID=232&PN=1
http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultima...hp/topic/43/68

Thanks 73_Gstock , I am only a humble Flag Marshall living in Canberra (5 hours drive from the Victorian border) who was interested in what the Vics were proposing. I also like to see considered debate on all things Motorsport. Maybe some of my Victorian Collegues will come onboard to discuss their proposal? (MickJ? where are you?).

It would be nice, like so many other things around the world, if we had an internationally agreed set of rules for the various categories. Pigs might fly!

[Flagman]

It would be nice, like so many other things around the world, if we had an internationally agreed set of rules for the various categories

We did - but then the GPDA decided that they knew better and changed it for F1 - and then it sort of spread!

[PVDA]

I hear the proposal was rejected for several convenient polically correct reasons but my ear to the ground tells me that ALL the elected groups that the proposal passed through agreed with the proposal and passed it up the food chain for approval and ratification but the unelected "paid" employees at the top of the heap knocked it back.

These days I'm a distant but vocal member of the VFT and was disgusted at the time that the people at the top decided to blindly follow the FIA rules even though we lowly flag marshals and others all said (and loudly) it will result in accidents and possibly injury or worse by reducing the flag marshals ability to do their job without having both hands tied behind their backs at times.

To all event promotors please include in your event sup regs the use of stationary Blue & Yellow flags as indicated in the original proposal and the people at the top of the CAMS Ivory Tower may get the hint (then again they may finally realise the pain in there rear end is those of us below them proding them with spears trying to wake them up).

Who the hell gave them the right to change the rules in the first place with no consultation of the affected groups anyway.

[humpty]

i bet Tim Schenken has got his finger in the pie somewhere along the line not to mention others in CAMS who dont want to rock the boat infear of losing their positions.from what i hear most states if not all of them think its god idea to revert to old rules but....all i can say is that they are all (ryhmes with anchors)

[John Newman]

Hi
Hae a look at HTTP://www.flag-marshal.org.uk
Maybe you would allow me to reproduce your note as an "idea" page.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by John Newman
Hi Hae a look at HTTP://www.flag-marshal.org.uk Maybe you would allow me to reproduce your note as an "idea" page.

Hi John, thanks for the link - looks like an interesting site for us Flaggies...will check it when time permits.

As for using the words I posted, they are not mine to release, they were on another public forum and I haven't heard any bleats from south of the border so far!!

Check with Webmasters@vicflag.org.au if you would like to make sure....Cheers

[PVDA]

I'm disappointed by the lack of bleating from others south of the border.

Maybe the VFT IS wasting it's time.

I might try putting a link to this on a few other forums to see if I can liven things up a bit on this important subject.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by PVDA
I'm disappointed by the lack of bleating from others south of the border.

Maybe the VFT IS wasting it's time.

I might try putting a link to this on a few other forums to see if I can liven things up a bit on this important subject.

sorry...... I mean PVDA (like the wood glue)

The "new" rules certainly are a source of frustration for flaggers especially in big, large field races where Race Control also loses track of where everyone is placed..........in that situation, the old rules were vastly superior because what we were supposed to do was beyond doubt.......

faster approaching slower?
Who cares if they are/are not being lapped?

show both of them that the slower has been warned and the faster may have some extra confidence to blast past (more overtaking!!!)

(please, no armchair experts saying "ooooh but what if the slower car does not see the Blue etc etc etc ...90 odd % of the time it works!!! and when it works time and time again ....guess what? Drivers tend to look to the Flag Points for guidance!!!

(we don't get it right everytime but mostly we do our job as good as the drivers do theirs!!! )

[Cedric]

The logic of the proposed change is good but I am not sure that these are the old rules in Australia, did you have Double Stationary Yellows preceding Double Waved Yellows?. the comments sections include some strange ideas that might be the reason for the remit failing apart from the spelling mistakes. eg Maybe we add to 3 DRIVERS MUST USE FIRST GEAR IN THIS AREA. I can see this working for Dble Yellows in the chase at bathurst or turn 1 at EC. A rewrite and a page at the end with ALL state flag/official bodies co-signing would add to the vote.