The merits of Sauber (Are there any?)

[Hugh Jarce]

Just looking at the news about Fisi going to Renault and the vacant seat at Sauber.

I have to confess, I don't find much attractive about Sauber.

They remain mid-pack year after year.
They have last year's Ferrari, which should be right up there but is underperforming.
They don't seem to communicate a passion to improve / win.
No-one ever seems to want to interview them!
They normally get drivers who have nowhere else to go!
They don't have the charisma of other 'lower' teams like Jordan, or even Minardi, which makes them attractive in the paddock.

I may be doing them an injustice but they feel to me like a team that just makes up the numbers and are used as a springboard for drivers.

So, what is Sauber all about?

Any positives from you guys?

[Logrence]

There needs to be a middle team in F1 or else there wouldn't be a middle...

If there was no Sauber then Renault or McLaren would be midfield staid teams by default.

[Kicking-back]

Sauber help fill the grid, occasionally get good results but there's just an overwhelming air of averageness about the whole team.

[Hugh Jarce]

I totally agree KB.

On Log's post ...

MMmmmm! .... So, is that a justification for spending £millions, to help define those above and below?

Maybe they'd be better and have a more competitve spirit if they didn't rely on Ferrari 'cast off's'

[Bononi]

Sauber is a midfield team linked to Ferrari, that's all.

[Kicking-back]

And those Ferrari links will always prove self-limiting on the team's ultimate performance.

[Paarma]

Well...they were 4th in 2001 constructors championship, beaten only by Ferrari,Mclaren and Williams.

[dcp2685]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
Just looking at the news about Fisi going to Renault and the vacant seat at Sauber.

I have to confess, I don't find much attractive about Sauber.

They remain mid-pack year after year.
They have last year's Ferrari, which should be right up there but is underperforming.
They don't seem to communicate a passion to improve / win.
No-one ever seems to want to interview them!
They normally get drivers who have nowhere else to go!
They don't have the charisma of other 'lower' teams like Jordan, or even Minardi, which makes them attractive in the paddock.

I may be doing them an injustice but they feel to me like a team that just makes up the numbers and are used as a springboard for drivers.

So, what is Sauber all about?

Any positives from you guys?

I don't see what the big deal is. They are an average team and yes they are basically using last years ferrari. However think of it this way....where do you think Ferrari would be if they were still using last years car? I would think by the end of the year they'd be sitting 4th or 5th which isn't a whole lot better than Sauber.

Also include the fact that Sauber is not a works team and is currently beating the snot out of those.

[BootsOntheSide]

Sauber have remained competitive for a decade, always able to give much better-funded teams a fright, partly down to astute strategies. Having Bridgestone tyres is a definate plus, and they have given guys like Raikkonen, Frentzen and Heidfeld a big career lift.

Who's to say they don't have a competitive spirit? I'm sure the guys at the factory in Hinwil work just as hard as those working for Jean, Ron, Eddie or Paul, and are just as passionate about getting teh best results.

[shiny side up!]

The Merits of Sauber
by Shiny Side Up!

1. Sauber provides a fairly competitive car for their drivers. They rarely have any huge problems with rigidity or balance. They offer a more realistic platform to evaluate drivers on than a Minardi or Jordan.

2. They are quicker and more consistent than a couple of works teams, on half the budget.

3. They do occaisionally come up with something innovative, see: twin keel.

4. They give young talent a shot in a decent car (Kimi and Felipe in recent years)

Sauber might be a bit 'average', but when you are beating the likes of Toyota and Jaguar, average is pretty darn good! I don't think they lack spirit, I'm sure they've got as much as Minardi, but Minardi gets the spotlight because they are the extreme case of racing on a shoestring budget (and because, for some reason, Brits like to idolize the underdog / perpetual loser, i.e. Mr. Bean ) They lack an obnoxious, shady, used-car-dealer-type leader like a certain yellow team, so they may not be as vocal in the press, but that doesn't mean they aren't a value for their sponsors.

Really, I am not a huge Sauber fan / apologist. But in the real world, not everyone can win. Hell, right now only Ferrari can unless the stars align 'just so'. But any team in the position to expect points at each race must be a fairly solid group!

[Glen]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
They normally get drivers who have nowhere else to go!

Dead right - if only they could sign promising and exciting new talent once in a while - why oh why can't they do something exciting like recruit Kimi Raikonnen or Felipe Massa? Oh - hang on...

[Attila]

I do not think that any teamowner is more passionate about racing than Peter Sauber. As you all know, at one point of his carrier he personally took up loans and morgaged (maybe wrong spelling) all his properties. That took some gutts. He is a clean cut racing maniac, who has the most points/$spent among all teams. That is the reason why he is there.

Offtopic: I do not sea any reason for Minardi's existence. They would take any driver with a budget. If I had 20 million USD I would be in the driver line up tomorrow :-). Sad but true.

[garcon]

One reasonably clear merit of Sauber... from a driver's point of view, driving for Sauber is a step forward from driving for Jordan. Ask Giancarlo.

[Kicking-back]

Sauber are no further forward now than they were at South Africa 1993, their first ever Grand Prix.

The drivers that day were two talents who circumstance sadly caused to be lost to F1 - Karl Wendlinger and Jyrki Jarvilehto.

[spider]

I have a lot of time for Sauber and have been a big supporter of them this year. Their cars look tidy, they don't moan about racing on a shoe string, and amazingly have built this stunning wind-tunnel in Switzerland that has allowed them to develop a very tidy rear packaging to their car. Fisi looks delighted at Sauber - they prepare in the same way as a works team, their resources (now) are up there with some of the top teams, and the budget they've got though not huge, is plenty to allow enough testing and development to at least allow the drivers the chance to fight for points throughout this season.

Fisi looked so down beat at Jordan, while this year the car has moved forward - he's felt like a team-leader in a respected outfit - his drive in the dry at Silverstone was something that just couldn't have been achieved in a Jordan, and Giancarlo knows that.

They are destroying Jaguar and Toyota in the championship while Jordan and Minardi can only dream of competing with them race-in, race-out.

So, what do they provide? They are the strongest Privateer team. They're well-backed, and give sponsors good value for money - a colleague worked for Credit Suisse, and they've been delighted with the exposure gained through the team.

They provide a super berth for the likes of Davidson or Liuzzi to develop. The car is good, the design team solid, and the setup very professional.

If I was an up-and-coming driver, or a driver who's disappearing from view I'd be scrambling for that seat - Fisi's proved that it can be a very useful springboard. It's a hell of a lot better than driving that Minardi around the back of the grid 6 seconds off the pace...

Peter deserves credit - Sauber are a solid team, with good resources, and act as a useful platform for companies to market, and drivers to display their talent.

Overall Sauber are a respectable outfit. No, they may not win the championship for 20 years, if ever, but they will be there each year, and Peter can be proud.

Anyone who's raced Owner/Driver karts will know there's nothing like the feeling of turning up with a lower budget, but outdoing the opposition - the satisfaction of beating Toyota and Jaguar (Ford) must be immensly satisfying for the lads back at the factory - a privateer team beating the heavy weights.

Peter Sauber - I salute you!

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
Sauber are no further forward now than they were at South Africa 1993, their first ever Grand Prix.

The drivers that day were two talents who circumstance sadly caused to be lost to F1 - Karl Wendlinger and Jyrki Jarvilehto.

Only 5 of the other teams on that grid are still here, 6 if you count Benetton as Renault. That in itself is an achievement considering that they lost massive works Mercedes support to McLaren.

[Kicking-back]

Very good point, Boots.

I'd be very optimistic of Sauber's prospects if they had a manufacturer engine deal.

[Glen]

There's nothing whatever wrong with their engine deal, IMO. It would be perfectly feasible to win with that engine - indeed Ferrari are winning with it. If it lacks power compared to the works car it will only be to a very minor degree. The rest of the car is where they need the input - but that means a hell of a lot of money that they just don't have. If they had the budget to develop and test like one of the top teams they could take themselves right to the top, or at least they would stand as much chance as anybody. It all comes down to money - if you wheeled out an F2003-GA and took it racing without millions and millions of dollars of testing and development you'd be just where Sauber are now.

[Kicking-back]

But Sauber are never going to win if they're heavily reliant on Ferrari input, which they may or may not currently be.

[Logrence]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
MMmmmm! .... So, is that a justification for spending £millions, to help define those above and below?

Of course! And this is exactly the reason why none of the big players will ever let Minardi go - because they need mediocre teams to make them look better.

Who would be the bottom teams without the likes of Minardi, Jordan and Sauber?

On the other hand, when I marshal (occasionally) there are a multitude of middle-aged balding men who are completely willing to tool around at the back of a field of 30 overpriced Caterhams and pay £1000s through the nose for the pleasure of doing so.

Why do they do it? Because they love it, I suppose.

Sauber may all reserved and Swiss, but I'm sure that they do what they love because they love what they do.

[ralf fan]

Sauber have Ferrari connections.... this does not mean they have to be a front running team...
teams like Jordon who promised much are in desperate need of money and are always in constant threat of being bankrupt whereas Sauber have managed to stay fairly easily on the f1 grid for a good few years....
their performances have been good staying within 2 secs of the top teams...

They may not be the most charismatic team but well done to them for survivng!

[jhansen]

I don't see how anyone can bag on Sauber at all. Many are saying they are under-achievers because they remain in the midfield. In my eyes they are incredibly resillient in what they have achieved with the resources they have. They get good results compared to the likes of Jaguar and Toyota, which have more money.

To say that they have last year's Ferrari and should be doing better is also poor logic, as the competition have all made strides forward. If Sauber had a partnership like BAR-Honda, McLaren-Mercedes, or Williams-BMW they would be right up there. Mr. Sauber took Mercedes to Le Mans glory and the World Sportscar Championship. He can get the job done and is passionate about racing.

[f1manoz]

Considering Sauber have rarely had a 'factory' engine deal since 1994, it's no surprise that the team have remained little more than average. They may get Ferrari parts, but they are always last year.

But the team are always there and are usually competitive. Fisichella has been superb this year and obviously the car isn't too bad. 2001 was also a good season, and there have been plenty of 'good' seasons over the years - their debut in 1993 was good, as was 1994, 1995 was consistent (from Harry anyway), 1996 was a bit of a downer, Herbert in 1997 was class, 1998/99 were downers as was 2000 but since then Sauber have been better than average most of the time.

[bastinscully]

Fall arse over tit with a fire bottle in the gravel in front of 8000 people, as the great Homer Simpson would say "DOHHHH!!"

[bastinscully]

click on wrong post, DOHHHHHHHHHH!