Does a driver have to be in F1....

Mr V · 3 Sep 2006, 19:33 (Ref:1700923)

... to be considered the best in the world?

I was watchin the DTM qualifying and Carlton Kirby (iirc) said that Tom Kristianson was without doubt in his top 5 drivers of all time.

"Anyone who wins Le Man's 7 times has to be among the top 5" is what he said, which got me thinking, hence the reason for this thread.

F1 is regarded as the pinnacle of motorsport, but it's not every drivers cup of tea. For over a decade now, Michael Schumacher has been regarded as the best driver in the world. Fwiw, imo, Alfonso now has the upper hand so does that make him the best in the world? But then, how do these 2 drivers compare to say, Sebastian Loeb?

He Joined the WRC circuit in 2002, should have been Champion in 2003 had it not have been for Citroens insistance that he take it easy in the last stage of the last round in the GB rally, thereby giving them the constructors championship and Petter Solberg the title. Won the championship in 2004 and 2005, and seems certain to regain it this year. Also (today) becoming the most successful driver in the history of the sport, taking his 27th win.

So, using these 2 examples (Loeb and Kristianson) how do their successes match up, and should they be regarded as "as good" or "inferior" because they are not in F1?

Knowlesy · 3 Sep 2006, 19:37 (Ref:1700928)

Good thread.

For me, you can be the best driver in the world in any of the top series, be it Champcar, Indycar, F1, sportscars, rallying, oval series etc....

And I think the more variety in your career, the more you can claim to be the best. Taking Loeb as an example, he has done Le Mans as well as rallying and is interested in other circuit racng possibly. I find that more impressive than guys who just stick in one series all their career.

That does not diminish anybody's achievements in motorsport however.

BootsOntheSide · 3 Sep 2006, 20:18 (Ref:1700988)

Rallying is clearly very different to circuit racing - the tarmac stages in particular, so it takes a different set of skills. I'm not sure seven Le Mans wins is an equal achievement to 7 F1 World Titles (or 7 wins at one of the most challenging circuits) because more than 1 driver wins every year, a single make of car is usually dominant, and the driver standard is not as high as F1. That said, i wonder what Kristiansen could have achieved in F1 - he was a frontrunner in F3000 at a time when a lot of its stars were struggling to get into F1 (Jorg Muller, Kenny Brack and Jamie Davies all come to mind as possible lost F1 stars).

To me, there are 4 pinnacles of motor sport - F1, NASCAR, MotoGP and WRC. The top drivers in those have a serious claim to being the best overall, but it'd be hard to sort out a serious cross-over challenge. Switching from racing bikes to cars is easier than cars to bikes, as most bike racers own cars, for example.

Alan Raine · 3 Sep 2006, 20:25 (Ref:1700991)

Unfortunately these days a driver only seems to do one thing at a time so it's very difficult to judge who's best.

In the old days F1 drivers would often race, Saloons, Can-Am, F2, F5000, Le Mans, or Indy etc at the same time so you got a much better idea of what they were capable of.

Molotov · 3 Sep 2006, 21:22 (Ref:1701023)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

To me, there are 4 pinnacles of motor sport - F1, NASCAR, MotoGP and WRC. The top drivers in those have a serious claim to being the best overall, but it'd be hard to sort out a serious cross-over challenge. Switching from racing bikes to cars is easier than cars to bikes, as most bike racers own cars, for example.

I agree with you, anyone who dominates any of these series can claim to be one of the best drivers in the world. Personally I can't wait to see what JPM and possibly JV can do in NASCAR. I'd like to see JV or JPM win races in NASCAR, it'd be quite a feat and it'd prove that F1 has exiled 2 of the best drivers they had(wich is a dying breed IMO).

Wrex · 3 Sep 2006, 21:37 (Ref:1701033)

Of course he does V man. And if a driver moves from F1 to NASCAR, he was never in the running anyway

Seriously though of course not. The first problem with that is "What is the best?". I know rally drivers that could'nt drive an F1 car at 99.9%, but then I doubt Alonso could win a WRC.

**Bononi** · 3 Sep 2006, 22:43 (Ref:1701072)

I agree 100% with the poster above !

Direct from the 10-10ths hall of fame...

deejay · 3 Sep 2006, 23:01 (Ref:1701085)

Yeah, I don't think you can say "best driver", because there are so many different styles to excel (rallying just being one other good example).

I think you can say F1 is the pinacle of open-wheel racing though.

Touring car racing is an interesting one - as it does seem to require a different skill set than open-weel. We've seen the F1 stars go back to DTM and hardly dominate. I watched an AussieV8 race yesterday featuring several people that have done in open-wheel racing (Courtney, Briscoe, Max Wilson) and none of them are the best drivers in that series.

So maybe there is a case to say that the best touring/sports car drivers are at least equivilent with the best open-wheel drivers.

I'd love to see how MS did in something like DTM - doesn't seem likely he'll give it a go though.

Mekola · 3 Sep 2006, 23:19 (Ref:1701099)

Well, in Argentina is the case of the Gálvez brothers, Oscar and Juan.
They were the men to beat in the Rally-esque Turismo Carretera during 1940s and 50s; both won 14 titles during the period 1947-61. Juan Manuel Fangio was one of the greatest rivals of them in TC.

Elder brother Oscar had talent in formula cars, in fact he was the first Argentinian who beat Europeans on Grand Prix cars in one of the Temporadas, in 1949. There were intentions to send him to Europe with Fangio, but he decided to continue in his home country. Nonetheless, he drove at 1953 Argentinian GP with Maserati, finishing 5th.

Some people regret he can't be a regular Formula 1 driver because they think he could be at least quite as good as Fangio on European circuits. But no doubt that he was a great champion who contributed to develop motorsport in Argentina, and that's why the Autodromo of Buenos Aires has his hame on his honour.

Alan Raine · 3 Sep 2006, 23:22 (Ref:1701104)

Quote:

Originally Posted by deejay

I'd love to see how MS did in something like DTM - doesn't seem likely he'll give it a go though.

Hakkinen is doing it, and he has won a few, but he's not a consistent winner.

dsg · 4 Sep 2006, 07:49 (Ref:1701278)

In line with what others have said. The drivers have to be at the top of their specific genre of racing, i.e. top open wheel, rallying, touring cars and sports cars to name a few.

I think it is also fair to say that the very top drivers are those that have excelled in more than in one specific class.

Nick49 · 4 Sep 2006, 08:28 (Ref:1701304)

Hello

Some past names that spring to mind include Stirling Moss, John Surtess, Jim Clark, Vic Elford, Mike Hailwood and Mario Andretti who were all tops in their respective start up careers and then competed or moved on to win in other careers.

I can hardly think of any Formula One driver in recent years who has either wanted or been allowed to compete in another series. Does that make them lesser drivers? There is no doubt that there are supremely talanted drivers outside of Formula One who are not recognised because the general public are fed on a diet of F1 only. Perhaps we should get Jamie Oliver in to introduce a different menu??

Nick

BootsOntheSide · 4 Sep 2006, 08:30 (Ref:1701308)

Stephane Sarrazin has done quite well in rallying despite never getting a regular chance in F1, so maybe somebody like Michael or Mika could do perfectly well in that. It's very hard to tell because the skills are subtly different.

Chatters · 4 Sep 2006, 08:37 (Ref:1701316)

I think having Formula 1 experience is good to have on your motorsport resume, but for some they simply don't want to go to F1. In Australia, you get young guys coming through Formula Ford, and then they go to Europe to try their luck and try and get a job in F1. That is their goal. Sebastian Loeb is an all time rally great, and I can't see him going to F1, but after what he has, and is still acheiving in the WRC I think he will be remembered well after he is gone by motorsport fans.

Then you have someone like Peter Brock, who a fair majority of people in Australia (and possibly the world) know of. He never had a chance to go to Formula 1, yet he is still immensely popular. And Larry Perkins. He contested 9 F1 Grands Prix (where he wasn't very successful- check out f1rejects.com) but everyone remembers him for what he has done to Australian motorsport.

So I guess I don't think that F1 makes you extremely popular, or at least not in Australia...

Speedblood · 4 Sep 2006, 10:42 (Ref:1701430)

quite an interesting topic

This is all my personal opinion

I think that a driver does NOT have to go to F1. Like several people have said, F1 is probably the pinnacle of Open wheel racing, and is probably recognised to be the pinnacle because of it's exposure and world wide viewing. Each class has it's pinnacle and it's (generally) where people in the feeder categories want to end up

Open wheel- F1
Oval- Nascar
Rally- WRC
Bike- MotoGP
Saloon- WTCC
Drag- NHRA

Unfortunatley their is no pinnacle of sportscars etc, as the FIA GT, ALMS, LMES are to centered around 1 area. Unlike when the World Sportscar championship existed.

The other problem is the amount of 1 off races that can change the above. The Indy 500 is a open wheel event, but Oval based. The isle of man TT is a legnedary bike race, the Bathurst 1000 is again a national race with a national series and Le Mans etc are only 1 off's.

Well thats what I think

Speedblood

Matski · 4 Sep 2006, 10:48 (Ref:1701433)

I think it would be fair to regard MS as the greatest driver in the world. Not because F1 "is the pinnacle of motorsport" but because he has won so consistently for such a long time. What other series' are there where the same person has been on top for so long seeing off all the opposition year after year?

You can't compare apples with pears though.

To do well in different disciplines is also a good measure of raw ability I think. It's a shame JPM couldn't get that WDC under his belt before going to NASCAR. JV also has an opportunity to prove himself - if he can lower himself to do touring/sports cars (or A1GP team Canada!). I like Hans Joachim Stuck, and in tin-tops and sportscars he's always done quite well... didn't do so good in F1 (or GPM) though.

kipper · 4 Sep 2006, 12:33 (Ref:1701502)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

In the old days F1 drivers would often race, Saloons, Can-Am, F2, F5000, Le Mans, or Indy etc at the same time so you got a much better idea of what they were capable of.

I'd agree with that remark, which to my mind is a pity that a number of the top drivers in F1 don't compete in other formulae and having some crossover in drivers between, say, F1 and sports cars does establish a basic benchmark for evaluating drivers in each category.

In regard to this thread, whilst I wouldn't argue that a driver has to be in F1 to be considered to being amongst the best (e.g. Kristensen, Bourdais, etc), the number of high profile drivers in F1 combined with a greater amount of media coverage, does often set the impression that F1's drivers are without parrallel.

Matski · 4 Sep 2006, 12:45 (Ref:1701512)

I think to answer the question what would make the best driver in the world, what standard would he be judged by?

Car control?
Consistency?
Adaptability?
Stamina?
Speed compared with peers and rivals?
Courage?
Having the best car underneath you?
Being in the right place at the right time? (Fernando - this means you!)

Different kinds of Motorsport require a different mix of the above... what do you think is most important?

Who knows. If I'd just done a bank job, and I needed a getaway driver - my choice wouldn't be Michael Schumacher (It'd probably be Quick Nick!)

jase · 4 Sep 2006, 13:09 (Ref:1701537)

IMO, a driver willing to race other categories and become more rounded is to me a much better driver and can be on the "greatest list".

A drive who just does single seaters/Tintops an excels is a good driver, but not like one who tries a bit of everything. - To be "the best in the world" means you have to take on all comers.

Loeb, McRae, Priaulx, Herbert, Surtees, Hawthorne, G Hill, J Clark, J Stewart, Ascari, TK, Senna and many moreall do/have compted regularly on multitude of levels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedblood

Unfortunatley their is no pinnacle of sportscars etc, as the FIA GT, ALMS, LMES are to centered around 1 area. Unlike when the World Sportscar championship existed.

The other problem is the amount of 1 off races that can change the above. The Indy 500 is a open wheel event, but Oval based. The isle of man TT is a legnedary bike race, the Bathurst 1000 is again a national race with a national series and Le Mans etc are only 1 off's.

Well thats what I think

Speedblood

Le Mans is not a "one off" as you now have the Le Mans Series. Sprtscar racing needs a resurgence of the WSC, but there is LMS/ALMS/Asia LMS/SuperGT etc.

jab · 4 Sep 2006, 14:02 (Ref:1701580)

With the theory that if you do well in loads of series, then surely Mario Andretti is the greatest of all time - he's won in virtually, if not every series he's taken part in

N I Tram · 4 Sep 2006, 14:11 (Ref:1701587)

Mario has a great CV, and a great personality as well. Hard to know who's the greates of them all, because most F1 drivers have only done F1 during their F1 years for a long time - probably since Jim Clark died in an extra-curricular race.

karimbo · 4 Sep 2006, 15:05 (Ref:1701612)

Tom Kristensen is not in the top 5.

He's probably in the to 3.

Why hasn't this guy ever raced a Formula 1 ? He has won EVERYTHING he has raced in !! Could you imagine him in a Williams FW18 ??

I know something though... When Michelin decided to get back in Formula 1 a couple of years ago, they bought 2 old chassis to test their tyres: a old Jaguar chassis and a old Williams chassis. And then they had to hire test drivers to test their tyres. Now Michelin is the biggest tyre company in the world. Money is not a problem for them. They wanted the best feedback. Who did they hire to do the job? Tom Kristensen and Jörg Müller.

There must be a reason for this...

Matski · 4 Sep 2006, 15:47 (Ref:1701634)

Quote:

Originally Posted by karimbo

I know something though... When Michelin decided to get back in Formula 1 a couple of years ago, they bought 2 old chassis to test their tyres: a old Jaguar chassis and a old Williams chassis. And then they had to hire test drivers to test their tyres. Now Michelin is the biggest tyre company in the world. Money is not a problem for them. They wanted the best feedback. Who did they hire to do the job? Tom Kristensen and Jörg Müller.

There must be a reason for this...

I think Michelin where doing pretty well before Tom and Jorg came along...

Having said that, are you implying that we have these two to thank for Indy '05 and Michelin withdrawing from F1.

P.S. Dirk's better than Jorg, and Priaulx is better than them both

jab · 4 Sep 2006, 16:57 (Ref:1701661)

Well according to the ITV 2000 season preview book I have, Jorg was supposed to be Williams' 2nd driver, but obviously Jenson came in and took the seat instead

Jordi · 4 Sep 2006, 17:11 (Ref:1701671)

To me the greatest driver has to be Mario Andretti, as he won in all things nearly...

But then again, you wonder whether people like Gurney or Clark would have bigger numbers than Mario if different circumstances had happened.

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