How difficult is it to see flags?

[garybirch]

At the recent castle combe training day, the experienced marshals got the opportunity to drive the circuit with some of the instructors while flags, caution boards and debris were put out for them to see.

There is another thread on this already but many of the comments on the day were of how great the experience was and how hard it was to sometimes distinguish between the flags - if they were seen at all!

Some comments were about the different types of yellow flags and that some are too light, others too much like the green.
Shouldn't there be a set standard all clubs should keep to?

So a lesson to all of us on the bank to make our flagging and other instructions to the drivers as clear as possible.

Also found this video that one combe regular, Gary Prebble, made in his last race of the 2006 season at combe. You can see from this how difficult it is to see things around you too.

Part 1
Part 2

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by garybirch

At the recent castle combe training day, the experienced marshals got the opportunity to drive the circuit with some of the instructors while flags, caution boards and debris were put out for them to see.

There is another thread on this already but many of the comments on the day were of how great the experience was and how hard it was to sometimes distinguish between the flags - if they were seen at all!

Some comments were about the different types of yellow flags and that some are too light, others too much like the green.
Shouldn't there be a set standard all clubs should keep to?

So a lesson to all of us on the bank to make our flagging and other instructions to the drivers as clear as possible.

Also found this video that one combe regular, Gary Prebble, made in his last race of the 2006 season at combe. You can see from this how difficult it is to see things around you too.
[/URL]

Firstly, and please don't flame me for this....the Marshals might have been a little overawed with the experience and maybe not concentrating as much as a "professional" would??

I would also be greatly interested to know about the experience and ability of the Flag wavers....ummm...experience can mean 25 years doing something the wrong way!!

Totally agree about the varying quality of Flags provided..it can be a real lucky dip

[allanh]

It was done at Mallory as well, i found it a very worthwhile experience with some flag points especially post 5 hardly seen at all. I was not overawed at all by the speed and was looking at the track from the drivers point of view.

[DaveW]

At the Snetterton training day this year we had an exercise where a driver drove around Riches and indicated, by putting the headlights on, when he would actually pickup the flags on each post. I think it surprised a lot of people both how soon they needed to flag and how small the "window of opportunity" was. And following on from Gary's comment about the flag colour, the background against which is displayed also can make a huge difference.

[Paul Newns]

Originally Posted by DaveW

At the Snetterton training day this year we had an exercise where a driver drove around Riches and indicated, by putting the headlights on, when he would actually pickup the flags on each post. I think it surprised a lot of people both how soon they needed to flag and how small the "window of opportunity" was. And following on from Gary's comment about the flag colour, the background against which is displayed also can make a huge difference.

That seems like an excellant idea. As flaggies, we think we know when the driver will be looking at us, but it would be useful to know when/if we are right.

The track day at Oulton last year made me realise that when you are concentrating on the next corner you don't always spot flag points closer to you, and that was me at a reasonable speed not racing.

[Jo Hill]

I'm currently learning flags after 10 years as incident. I did the flag training at Mallory which I found extremely helpful. When being driven round the circuit (one I thought I knew well) I was amazed at the visibility points - what I thought was an obvious flag point just couldn't be seen while you were driving (most specifically round Gerrards). The other thing I really noticed was the amount of colour round the circuit - hoardings, banners, grass etc which made seeing the flags very difficult. It made me think about things in a different way, and I have to say, hats off to the drivers for actually seeing the flags when they have so much else to think about.

[Woolley]

As others have said, I try to make my signals clear, and I know where I think they can be seen, but anything that gives confirmation of that has to be good. Perhaps the green flag lap in practice should be compulsory for all entrants with a wave/flash when you can see the flag instruction? That helps them to help us to help them. Although I haven't (yet) experienced this, it's clearly a useful addition to the training day armoury, and well done to the people who thought of it.

[archaic gold]

Some years ago, I had the privilege of going around Silverstone (on a BRDC Training Day) with David Leslie. There were four cars out, Alain Menu, Will Hoy and I other, and I apologise I can not remember who it was. We were supposed to stick to the national Circuit, but sod it! they were BTCC Competitors so we went through the cones onto the Hangar Straight and the GP Circuit. The four cars were in box formation, and being with David, back row, on the right, all I could see was the back window of the car in front. David said that if he accelerated a miniscule, he would hit the back bumper of the car in front, we were that close. I looked to my left and I saw that the car alongside me had interlocked driving mirrors with ours. We proceeded round into Vale in this position, and David said "I defy you to see any Marshal's Posts let alone Flag Points!!" Yet by the time we had completed four laps of the GP Circuit, there was not a scratch on any of the cars. (They were school cars!!) Expert driving, or what, but it did throw a new light on how skilled some of these professional drivers are, but adds to the situation that we need, desperatley, bright coloured lights on each corner, not pieces of faded cloth on a stick.

[Mark Mitchell]

Do you not perhaps think that ALL flag signals should be of the "Waved" type to catch the drivers eye?

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Do you not perhaps think that ALL flag signals should be of the "Waved" type to catch the drivers eye?

At a major Meeting, a flag point near a Grandstand with spectators jumping up and down and cheering would distract the driver from a Flag Signal. We also have a separate thought going to do away with a Stationary Yellow. So do we have two Posts both showing a waved Yellow, or just leave it to the waved Yellow at the incident? My attention is often drawn to the Motorway Maintenance vehicle that precedes road works with its brilliant flashing yellow lights. You would be hard pushed to miss those, and likewise, a Competitor would have no answer if ignored a similiar light arrangement on a Circuit.

[Mark Mitchell]

I'm actually in favour of using lights, so long as they can be controlled locally by competent marshals.

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

I'm actually in favour of using lights, so long as they can be controlled locally by competent marshals.

I could not agree more! Central control of lights is alright on a Track Hire situation, where anything more than minor incident normally involves terminating the session, but at a Race Meeting the Post Chief with his team, must have total control within their Sector.

[James Elder]

Lights during snatching and the like can work. Donington's snatch lights flash alternately, generating movement - and anyone who has been in a training session with Chris Maries will have heard that a bit of movement even with a stationery flag will get the driver out of his "tunnel vision".

Duncan Auckland has also talked us round the Oulton Park circuit in the past and told us the flag points he sees - and the general pattern seemed to be that it would be seen if it was in his field of vision (and travel - drivers have a straight ahead tunnel vision, so the easiest flags to see are those which appear in that field).

Flags can be concealed by trees and advertising hoardings, disturbed by other factors (see how many flags wave in the grandstands at grands prix). The race cars themselves can also be unhelpful - anyone who has driven even just a few laps in a go kart will have seen how busy you can be in a single seater.

[archaic gold]

[QUOTE=James Elder]

Duncan Auckland has also talked us round the Oulton Park circuit in the past and told us the flag points he sees - and the general pattern seemed to be that it would be seen if it was in his field of vision (and travel - drivers have a straight ahead tunnel vision, so the easiest flags to see are those which appear in that field).
Agreed, if we are lucky enough to be driven around a Circuit, we are not normally restrained by a Hans Device, and also do not have to worry about the car control. More and more Flag Posts are being placed further and further away from the "tarmac" well outside the driver's line of (restricted) vision;therefore, lights MUST be the answer as they are more recognisable as signals, and can be located in the driver;'s line of vision; say; just above an armco barrier.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Woolley

As others have said, I try to make my signals clear, and I know where I think they can be seen, but anything that gives confirmation of that has to be good. Perhaps the green flag lap in practice should be compulsory for all entrants with a wave/flash when you can see the flag instruction? That helps them to help us to help them. Although I haven't (yet) experienced this, it's clearly a useful addition to the training day armoury, and well done to the people who thought of it.

Just to add to that....out here, the Stewards of the meeting ask for a flag to be waved at all points (and probably to see if the Flaggies are awake as well!!) to assess how well they can be seen by drivers as part of their track inspection....if satisfied, its close the track and lets go racing.

Despite what has been said above, it is the Drivers duty to check each Flag Point as they race around...if they don't, it is at their peril (eg a warning of danger might be missed) or at their penalty (go and see the CofdeC sunshine!).

Anyone who has reasonable experience with Flags has seen the feedback MOST drivers give back many times when they are out there...which is appreciated, because it acknowledges the fact that we have done something right (or wrong )...after all...we are mainly out there to help Drivers do their thang

[archaic gold]

Just to throw another "spanner in the works", nobody has touched upon the scenario of a late Autumnal Day, Heavy Dark clouds and absolutely pouring with rain during a Single Seater Race. Forget flags entirely. Most drivers are hard pushed to see the tail light of the car in front, but at least you would be in with a chance with high intensity signalling lights at Flag points!

[garybirch]

Perhaps we need to have a mobile disco at each post with all the different flashing lights one could think of! Entertaining and visible!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by garybirch

Perhaps we need to have a mobile disco at each post with all the different flashing lights one could think of! Entertaining and visible!

By George!! I think hes got it !! Would you mind terribly if I cornered the Hot Dog concession

[MacGWC]

Much of the comment contained in this thread was incorporated into the paper presented by the Marshals' Club on alternative marshalling methods. This paper now forms the basis for a special MSA Commission on Alternative Marshalling, with a brief from the Chairman of the MSA to report back with recommendations by June/July of this year. Detailed proposals are circulated to BMMC Council members and to the Chief Marshals of all other marshalling groups, for comment.

[White flag man]

Very interesting thread that brings up a number of arguments.
I really enjoy being a flag marshal, but do the drivers actually look at us/can they see us, as we are getting further and further away or we have a debris fence right in front of us. It would be nice to have drivers come on post with us , not just so they can see what we do, but also they can tell us what they see and when, as regard flags. Maybe we can have small orange lines from the edge of the track, to let us know when the driver's line of sight is towards each post.
Another idea might be on various marshal's track days to have flaggies around the track so, as an added interest, we can see how difficult it is to see flags. There are some comments about the flags being brighter, but one of the most important flags is black??!!, do we need a change. Some flags do clash with backgrounds, green against trees etc, some get very dirty and who has not had trouble with flags in the wind.
Lights may be the answer but, we could not have a blue flashing light, a red and yellow light or, ofcourse a black light. If we are going to have lights then, surely they should be on overhead gantries, otherwise we would still have the same problems with vision

[MacGWC]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Very interesting thread that brings up a number of arguments.
I really enjoy being a flag marshal, but do the drivers actually look at us/can they see us, as we are getting further and further away or we have a debris fence right in front of us..............
do we need a change. Some flags do clash with backgrounds, green against trees etc, some get very dirty and who has not had trouble with flags in the wind...................
Lights may be the answer but, we could not have a blue flashing light, a red and yellow light or, ofcourse a black light. If we are going to have lights then, surely they should be on overhead gantries, otherwise we would still have the same problems with vision

For all the reasons you state, flags are becoming more difficult to see, even by the most diligent drivers. Lights, on gantries or whatever, can more easily and safely be put directly in drivers' line of sight than can a fully maned flag point - if anyone can remember what a fully manned flag point looks like! Current proposals call for yellow, green and red lights, with blue, yellow/red and white remaining as flag signals. Black flags are, of course, retained for start line use on the orders of the Clerk of the Course. Red lights, too, will be on the order of the Clerk of the Course.

What the Special Commission is trying to achieve is better use of the reduced number of marshals but still to keep the job interesting for those who remain.

[White flag man]

You could still have a white light and the red and yellow flag could become an orange light. I just thought there was something in law about the use of flashing blue lights. I personally wouldn't recomend the use of flags and lights, as the drivers do have to keep an eye on what is happening on the track, but wouldn't the gantries be manned by marshals anyway.
Hopefully we can get a few drivers comments on this thread.

[CombeMarshal]

But you can't have just lights, you'd always have to be manned at full levels in case the lights failed!
But I suppose we could fit red light cameras to the lights, instant fines!

[White flag man]

What about marshals with hand held lights (and spare batteries). May not be as silly as it sounds. The lights could be aim at specific drivers, as in a blue light, and their line of sight would be greater, as you would be aiming the light at them.

[Shelagh]

Blue and yellow lights at Le Mans work really well and used to be used even in daylight at some posts where the backdrop (trees) made it difficult to see cloth flags. Steady beam for stationary and winking for waved and all controlled by the marshals on the scene (no radio "commands" in sports cars!).

Slightly changing the immediate topic - we "flagged" at Lakeside at Oulton Park on Good Friday using the new "in the box" position. We couldn't wave the flags (because of upright poles and the protective mesh and the equipment box) unless we stood at the back of the box, so that made them pretty much redundant to the drivers. From that position we couldn't see Island In (and vice versa) so the yellow/red flags were shown from by the steps (at ground level) but that would not have been possible without 2 flaggies present. Not surprisingly we had a few phone calls from race control asking if we were actually flagging at all!

I understand why the flag points have been moved and was glad to be in the box when the caterham came in at full chat and I didn't have to dodge the dislodged tyres (by jumping in the lake) - but the new positioning is not conducive to any sort of decent flagging. We might have managed better with lights but I'm not so sure as we couldn't see most of the track we were covering (which will only get worse when the trees get more foliage). An observer's report was put in - so we can only wait and see.