The great tyre debate.....

[Walshy]

Now that I'm back up to full operating mode again, I thought I would pick this up where it was left off back in October of last year.

The same old debate on tyres and number of sets used rages on in the Formula Ford ranks and the old arguement of the have's and have nots.

I purchased a new set of tyres at the Festival in October and when I went up the steps in the truck to pay, Brian from Avon said to me "so your Walshy then?"

Expecting a few choice words from him about my ramblings on restricting the number of sets per competitor and limiting his sales, I found he was in favour of the idea. This was due to the fact that history has shown them that by restricting the number of tyres per competitor, they actually sell more tyres!!!!

Instead of a handful of drivers buying all the tyres, if you allocate each car a maximum number of 3 sets per year, then each driver tends to buy all 3 allocated sets. IT is then up to the driver to make the most of what he/she has.

Apparently, this is quite easily policed as all the tyres are numbered and you don't have to buy all 3 sets at once or at all, as the numbers can be taken at any stage of a season.

A little more homework is required on this before we take it to the powers that be, but as a tester, I thought I'd run a quick poll and see what general consensus is like. No point in following it up if nobody wants it.

Don't just vote. Have your say as well and any more ideas would be good on this topic.

I believe this tyre limiting has worked in Ireland with great success, so why we can't run it over here I don't know.

Cheers

[blue nose]

Chris new rubber is better than old.

Those that are selling it to us will not limit the amount as they are used to earining lots of profit. Which is good for their business, But not the competitor.

We all know they are good for one race and maybee a test before they are useless and for what they cost.... Or 5 laps of Anglesey.

Maybee there is a better tyre out now than these 15 year old ones.

[kartingdad]

To limit the tyres to three per season is pretty dumb in my opinion. We completely wore out 2 brand new and 2 old tyres last weekend alone at Anglesey.

The tyres Ian ran in the Moose quite frankly were dangerous in the wet, which is why he came in and parked the car up before the end of the race. If the tyre truck had been present on the sunday, he would have had new tyres.

I would be very unhappy to be told that tyres would be limited to three sets per year. What would happen if Mr X put new tyres on and Mr y was stuck on an old set that had had loads of heat cycles put through them. It would give Mr y a performance disadvantage for that race.

What would happen if you wore your three sets out after say six meetings. Slow down for the rest of the season?

Not practical I'm afraid.


Of course I wish the tyres lasted longer, but at the end of the day, this is motor racing, and its an expensive pastime.

If you want to cut costs over a season. make the engines last longer, get the BRSCC to promote the races to the general public in order to get a slice of the gate money to enable them to reduce the entry fees. They do no advertising or promotion at all of any substance and rely on the competitors to fund everything.

Sack off half the hangers on from the brscc and MSA to make costs of running a meeting less. The 750 mc meetings have a far cheaper entry fee. Why?

I understand the reasoning behind the tyre limiting theory, but where does it stop? Does that mean limiting testing, limiting the use of newer cars as they can be faster, limiting the amount of engines, ban data loggers.

Surely we should be trying to move ff1600 forward, not backwards.

[Walshy]

Did you not read the Post Alan!

They are saying they are happy to agree to this if we do.

I suppose it all depends on your driving style and how you treat your tyres.

I know plenty of drivers setting good lap times and even winning on some very second hand tyres. In the interest of the sport, this has to be a good measure as it reduces costs and levels out the playing field.

As I said mate, it's worked elsewhere.

Anyway, you haven't voted ............

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

To limit the tyres to three per season is pretty dumb in my opinion.

You might want to choose your words a little more carefully.

This is an open and honest debate and open to any opinion.

Where you may be disadvantaged one weekend, you make up for it another. You save one set as your Wet set. It's not hard to get your head around is it??????

Testing is a seperate thing. Buy all the tyres you want for testing. Do all the testing you want. But you have 3 sets for the year for the race meetings. And yes, the situation at Anglesey is slightly different at the moment due to it still rubbering in, but it's getting better.

It works in other Formulae as well. It just becomes another skill of the driver rather than drivers relying on new tyres everytime they go out to make them look better than they actually are!

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by Walshy

You might want to choose your words a little more carefully.

This is an open and honest debate and open to any opinion.

Where you may be disadvantaged one weekend, you make up for it another. You save one set as your Wet set. It's not hard to get your head around is it??????

Testing is a seperate thing. Buy all the tyres you want for testing. Do all the testing you want. But you have 3 sets for the year for the race meetings. And yes, the situation at Anglesey is slightly different at the moment due to it still rubbering in, but it's getting better.

It works in other Formulae as well. It just becomes another skill of the driver rather than drivers relying on new tyres everytime they go out to make them look better than they actually are!

Why would i want to choose my words more carefully?

Apparently this is an honest and open debate.

As I said, I understand the concept, but in my opinion, its dumb.

You are now saying that of your threee sets, one you would keep as wets, so effectively you are having only 2 sets for a whole season leaving the option of using your 'wets' for the final race.

What happens if you choose to use your wets on a track that drys out? They would then be not good anough to be used as wets later.

Sorry, but its a daft idea and one often mooted by people who think that new tyres are the only reason people go quick.

Its not the only reason, but if you want to be truly competetive, then new tyres do help.

Why spoil a race because this weekend mr x was on his old tyres?

One new set a weekend is the only responsible method of controling tyre usage.

Surely its not too hard to get your head around?

[Cleggie]

where's the fight going to be then? this is better than the ClubF3 thread!

tyres eh! how to start an argument in an empty room.......

[Walshy]

By saying it's a dumb idea is to insinuate that anyone that agrees with it is dumb.......

I'm certainly not dumb!

It's a valid idea and one that can be adhered to. It has been proven. I might keep one set for the wet, but you don't have to. That's the idea. It's up to you to manage your tyres.

We are only talking about 10 races of 20 minutes. Plus 10 15 minute qualifiers. That's works out to less than 2 hours per set. As I said, you can use all the tyres you want for testing and other events.

You seem to be making the assumption that you would be at a disadvantage to those around you. Everyone will be in the same boat. That's the point. Nobody has an advantage.


Now that's not hard to get your head around.

Thought I'd start a friendly debate and you've managed to sour it.

Well done!

[WildMan78]

The main problem the way I see it from having separate tyres for testing and racing is the lack of space issue unless you have a big truck . As most people do the majority of their testing the day before a race you would need to set aside more space for all the tyres you need for the test day (maybe a worn set and a good set if its wet ) and the same again for race day . That is potentially 4 sets of rims/tyres .
Where do you put that lot if you tow with a road car ? There is also the cost issue of running 4 sets instead of 2 .
For championships that test the day before they race such as NW FFord I don't think limiting tyres would work

[kartingdad]

Nobodys soured it. Maybe spiced it up a bit though.

Just like winding people up a bit!


Doh! Some people............

Actually, its not about being diadvantaged, but whats the point in racing on knackered tyres? Might as well go banger racing.

See my original post for cost cutting ideas that could work without detrimentally affecting the racing.

We have 3 sets of rims. Oldest set for shaking car down, middle set for testing and set of new ones for the races. We generaly get one set of tyres every couple of meetings which averages out at £200 per meeting.

Thats less than an entry fee, and the same price as a days testing. So if you are happy to spend £200 testing and more on an entry fee, then why not £200 on tyres?

On the other hand Stuart won at the weekend on tyres that were completely wrecked, having done the entire WHT and at least 2 test days and a race. Its all about choice.

[Walshy]

No worries.

I bit. Totally.

I'll get you back.

There are many ways of cutting costs, some cut costs more than others.

But I'm just echoing what has been said by the tyre people. Limiting tyres does work.

[rickster-5]

I agree with Walshy
If u read Diz's latest newsletter our numbers are falling--especially A's & B's.
Tyre management has always been a skill--even F1 are limited!!!
Racing tyres are outrageously priced from Karting upwards so to create this level playing field that FFord bangs on about limiting the number seems to make sense--doesn't it.
Winning using 3 sets in a meeting when there only 2 runners!!(everyone else has gone fishing) --- not much satisfaction.
Oh and BTW how much more expensive will entry fees become if number of cars reduce and how much extra will we have to pay for TV (assuming anyone wants to watch 2 cars!!)

[A Quartermaine]

There is also a safety issue to be considered in line with this debate.
Limiting the number of tyres available to a competitor for a season is potentially a useful measure to reduce costs but its validity is dependent upon safety.

Some circuits, set ups and driving styles will dramatically increase tyre wear. If you had made a mess of your 3 sets of tyres by mid season would you contemplate lapping the Rockingham banking at 109 - 124 mph in the heavy rain?

Having done this a few weeks ago i would not have raced on a very green and very wet circuit on old tyres and if this restriction existed i would have packed up, gone home and sold the car.

The most effective manner to reduce costs is to run more double header meetings, it certainly has helped to boost our grids this season and increase the value for money.

[Walshy]

Totally agree with you there AQ and comman sense has to prevail in these situations.

But a driver couldn't constantly use this as an excuse. Tyre management is a skill and as I said previously, One set aside for wet might not be such a bad idea. That's up to the individual though.

I agree with double headers too.

[test run]

I agree that limited tyes would control costs. It does work, however I do feel that the tyes are not upto the job.

There is clearly a wear issue with ACB10's and it about time we the FF comunity requested a new tyre deal. We would not only probably get a better tyre, performamnce vs wear but also cheaper.

On another note why not limit testing: Testing is expensive on tyres, engines, fuel, time ...... Is it really nessesary to do lap after lap in testing. Some of the very best drivers I know do relatively little testing. I would have thought 3 or 4 test a year would be enough for anyone, partticularly at single venue championships.

[Walshy]

Another good point, but that would be a tough one to police and would require the co-operation of all the drivers.

Some young kid looking to progress would want all the time he can get in the car.

One of the cars in our Championship is a class "E" and runs on the ACB9's. They are showing much less wear than the ACB10's. Could be a case for a change there.

It would be interesting to see if anyone with an '00+ chassis has ever tried to test some ACB9's.

[JnrJnr]

I don't actually see a problem that needs fixing (from my ovservations in the NW championship).

By restricting tyre use what are you hoping to see? The racing is already extremely close and competitive.

I don't see the people winning races consistently running new tyres for every meeting, we certainly don't. And the same goes for the rest of the field, as far as I know.

The difference from the top 6 fastest to midflied pace will not be cured by restriting tyres, so it will not make for a fairer championship.

If you want to go faster, work on your car set up and driving.

If you want to save money, it can't come from restricting tyres because a) it compromises safety and b) most of the filed are not using new sets every meeting anyway (and if they are they are not always winning so let them if it makes them feel better).

Costs can be saved in other areas, such as not crashing into people. But wheres the fun in that (joke).

[rickster-5]

An interesting debate
However,you can't have it both ways---either fresh rubber makes a difference or it doesn't. If it doesn't why do people want unlimited tyres????
Different surfaces(tracks) will give more time than others but fresher rubber will be quicker.
As for safety, shouldn't you drive within your capabilities and that of your car --fresh or worn rubber??

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by rickster-5

An interesting debate
However,you can't have it both ways---either fresh rubber makes a difference or it doesn't. If it doesn't why do people want unlimited tyres????
Different surfaces(tracks) will give more time than others but fresher rubber will be quicker.
As for safety, shouldn't you drive within your capabilities and that of your car --fresh or worn rubber??

Of course fresh rubber makes a difference, probably half a second per lap on a longish track, but for sure are more consistant.

My stance on it is, yes, great limit tyres, but 3 sets (or 4) if you want to drive quickly (and wear them out faster) is not a viable proposition. It has to be one set per race meeting, with wets free, just on safety grounds.

And if you have badly worn tyres, just how slow do you go to avoid aquaplaning off. And how many drivers always drive within their or their cars capabilities?
I would suggest that the less good drivers are the ones that are more likely to miscalculate, and often thats because they have unpredictable cars or worn tyres fitted.

We contest short 'sprint' type races so tyre management cannot really come into it. Thats an issue reserved for long distance races and usually where pit stops are allowed.

What happens if someone, say from Ireland, comes over for a race?

What happens if you have a handling problem on your car and despite your best endeavours ruin a front tyre at a race. You then have only one other nsf tyre (apart from your wet set) to last a season.

So after 1/2 a season you have no tyres left. Oh well, sell the car then eh?

The whole thing is totally impractical.

[rickster-5]

Fair comment---gets complicated if u wreck a tyre.
In karting u can have a replacement---problem I see is that Avon aren't around for all meetings (anglesey on Sunday for instance ).
Maybe thats another good reason for looking for a replacement tyre/company

[Triple J Motorsport]

It is a good idea we had it in Avon FFZetecs 2 new tyres per meeting. With ACB10s you would start with say 6 at first race of the championship you race in then 2 tyres at each further round.

It does sell more tyre because you think better buy my two tyres and get them registered, in case I need them.

There is very little drop of with the ACB10s I think they are a great tyre.

I had some very used ACB10s on my car Mr Dempsey drove it un altered and went the fastest he had ever lapped in a FF1600 and under the lap record!

[chris1600]

My two pence worth........

Limiting to 3 sets is a good idea. I raced using one set of tyers last year (and will do this year) and I only had one set of rims. Now I have a new set of rims and my 14 month old tyres as spares.

Buying three sets of tyres would cost £1200!!! OK, so racing is expensive and any ideas/plans to try to limit spending would be silly and pointless. However, the difference between the big budgets and the small budgets is huge. In the paddock at the WHT last year amongst all the big posh motorhomes and caravans my Dad and I slept in the back of a normal van, I don't have lots of spares and don't plan to have an engine rebuild at the end of the year (certainly not 3 or 4 times during it!).

As for safety, FF1600 isnt dangerous. Maybe if we were racing around the TT course it might be an issue but Combe, Oulton and Mallory arn't scary (at least at the sppeds I go).

Of course it may not matter that much as the people who I race against in the latter part of the grid are in the same situation as myself.

But thats what I think, for what its worth..........

[youngoldy]

Quite frankly, what would be gained if we went to using 'three tyre sets a season?'

Not much, thats all I can say. If you have got the money, spend it. If you haven't, tough.

You can't say 'I can only afford 3 sets a year, so everyone else should only have 3 sets a year'. Its the equivelant to saying 'I'm down on engine revs, those ahead of should have their revs limited'. it just won't happen.

Why do some people only use 3 sets a year? They dont have the money? They race that often? They feel they can get alot of use out of them?

If tyres were made cheaper, those who use very little numbers of tyres would then, in my view, buy more tyres. Those who buy new tyres all the time wouldn't buy any more, or any less, because they are buying as much as they need anyway.

In FPA, they use one set of dry and wet tyres for the entire weekend. Why? To keep the costs down.

Like KD said, its dangerous going out on a wet track if all you have is a shot set of tyres. Not only for yourselves, but others your racing against.

The Formula has lived without tyre limits for 40 years. And its managed fairly well without tyre limits.

If tyre limits are put in place, BMTR will sell less tyres, the prices will go up, BRSCC fees would go up to control the tyre useage etc etc etc, and we end up paying no more or no less than we started out with.

[StephenRae]

The tyres we are using are not up to the job. The last few weekends at Anglesey have dramatically illustrated this....I managed 5 laps out of a left front before it was rooted. I appreciate the track is very abrasive at the moment but that is what we are stuck with.
I had planned to just buy fronts for the rest of the season....where would that leave me with a "3 sets rule"? Where would my penchant for buying second hand tyres fit into the scheme of things?
Chris I think you should have put another choice in the poll on the lines of "Should the control tyre be changed to one that either costs less or lasts longer"

[kartingdad]

If you go to a harder compound tyre it will not waork in the wet.

If you want to change the tyre construction, you will need a proper wet tyre.

Now that would really upset the costings as a brand new wet is lots better than a partly used one that has the sharp edges of the tread blocks worn away. So then you get people throwing new wets on for every wet race.

Back to sqaure one then.

I think the tyres we have are a pretty good compromise, although a bit iffy in really wet conditions.

They have reasonable grip and durability, but are just a bit overpriced.

On the other hand a good quality tyre for my mountain bike is about £25 - £30 which is silly money as there is hardly any rubber on them!

Maxxis Kart tyres are £25 each as well, and they are only tiny things.

As I said previously, there are much better ways to reduce costs rather than slow down the racing.