Pre War Racing today

[john ruston]

The regulars will have noted the interesting opinions on the Goodwood thread.Thought it would be a good idea to keep it boiling
My points
a) Vscc races are for specials with very few cars that are real
b)Motor Racing Ledgends adopt an invertation policy that trys to weed out specials
c)As far as sports cars In my opinion they should all be raced on normal petrol,min 18" wheels,wings,lightsand within 5% of original capacity.The weight of the car stated before the race.No titanium.You have to allow new blocks as there would be no Ulsters or Bentleys turn up
Thats a start and we will see if the Thread takes off.
Any other bright ideas?

[John Turner]

John, I'm assuming that you are saying that there is room for all provided that they are clearly identified as such and that they run at separate races or events. For example the VSCC has always had specials; hotting up/modifying old sports cars is an old tradition going back to before the war, so it is definitely a 'historic' art. When you say very few cars are 'real' you mean 'original' of course, since I wouldn't like to be hit by one!

I'm looking at the 2002 VSCC Spring start programme (the first that came to hand!) and it is true that many are actually described as 'special' so there is no intent to deceive, is there? If I look at the first race, there are indeed a lot of specials but also a couple of Nick Mason's Ulster Astons, a Alfa 1750GS (Robin Toone), the late Tom Delaney's LeaF Hyper, Vauxhall 30/98 (Jamie Quartermaine), Bentley 3-litre (Duncan Wiltshire), and an FWD Alvis (Peter Livesey) to name but a few. Surely these are predominantly original cars, aren't they? I suppose what I am saying is that I wouldn't want any potential spectators to be put off going to a VSCC meeting because they think that they will only see specials.

May I also point out that notwithstanding your comment about Motor Racing Legends, you stated last year that one of the reasons for the poor entry to their supporting race at the Silverstone Britcar 24 hours was that many of the cars were not original. Have they changed their policy?

[zefarelly]

I know nothing about pre war racing, not to say I'm not interested however, but it would appear it attracts the same amount of 'regulation exploration' as any other series !

[terence]

When you look around at some of the specials ,Thunder Bug being only one of them,It does make you realize that these drivers are true enthusiast material,having to hand prime fuel systems,oil systems etc.Who is to say that they are original/not original,I really dont think that for cars of this type,this should be of concern ,purely because of the fact that these cars ,if it were not for their current custodians,would be slipping into collections ,and never come out again!

[john ruston]

The MRL race at Silverstone had different regs to others in series as Duncan wanted to see how it would go.
I agree with point JT.s point that there are original cars at VSCC meetings but they seem to mix these cars with specials.The Fox and Nichol race should and was intended to be for original cars but was won for many years by the Blue Streak Special.The VSCC stated that they could not get enough original cars but the festival race at Siverstone has been oversubscribed for many years with original cars.
The specials have their place and things like 3/8 Bentleys,Blue streak Special,Aero Engine cars and all the other engeering masterpieces have a major part to play in VSCC racing.My point is that they should not be confused with original based cars.Those 3/8 Bentleys did not exist in period.
You are correct in the assumption that there are the usual disputes about regs as in any other period but the pre war people have more rivet counters per car than any other period although in certain areas its a case of 'In the land of the Blind the one eyed man is King' Experts are thick on the ground and whatever you do do not go to quickly!
For those who have never driven a pre war car have a go in a good one it is good fun

[terence]

I could,nt agree more with that John,I don,t claim to have a huge amount of experience with these cars but I have driven the odd one.The last being a blower Bentley,only on public roads,but boy was that a car to hustle through country lanes,just don,t grip the wheel too much!!.They always look like they will not go around a 90deg bend without a 3point turn,how wrong a misconception is that.These cars need keeping alive,long may it be so!!

[zefarelly]

where does one get a go in a decent pre war car ? the only one I've driven is a '35 Austin 10 2 seater tourer, around Le Mans camp site, doffing ones hat dressed in cravat, shirt and stripey blazer, it was slow enough not to spill any wine on my shorts !

[terence]

Blazer with Shorts,sorry old boy ,but it,s just not done.

[esper]

he didn't spill wine

[terence]

Just as well,STRIPEY SHORTS!!

[zefarelly]

I must add at this point that the shorts where not stripey, what do you think I'm like !!!

http://www.throbnozzle-racing.co.uk/...ingdandies.jpg

[terence]

Sorry Zef,I had no idea the shorts and Blazer matched

[rbm]

I think the majority of cars in the VSCC are modified which mostly fall in to Johns point c "...... sports cars In my opinion they should all be raced on normal petrol,min 18" wheels,wings,lightsand within 5% of original capacity.........No titanium....."

But these whilst the main stay are may be not perhapse the cars that are remembered off hand.

whilst I have mainly hill climbed with the VSCC with out 1931 MG (modified - it has hydraulic brakes as it has had since the early 50's), the standard and Modifed classes seam to attract a big turnout of entries.

[terence]

Yes and they aways attract quite a bit of attention from the spectators,one reason why these car need to be kept going.!Cos if we aint got them-----

[Jules 123]

A very tricky subject here I think John but one worth discussing.

What is original?
A car kept by one owner for 60 years and kept running by bodging bits together and spending lots of amateur time doing things badly and with little expense and competence.
Lots of parts changed through lack of either money or skills or the right knowledge.

Or
A car totally restored to the correct period pre-war spec,
But with new engine, gearbox etc, Steel billet crank and rods, Higher compression, race cam, big valves etc, etc

Or do we say
Absolutely as it was Pre-war. NO CHANGES Full Stop!
Don't think there would be one car racing today if we said that though.

Of the top two I am sure one could say the other was cheating and vice versa!

Answers on a post card please

Jules

[terence]

Wellput Jules,is there a prize for the correct answer?

[john ruston]

In my opinion as long as the car is as the original with capacity.wheels etc being as original it is acceptable.New blocks will be needed for all makes but the problem is 5.4 litre that should be 4.5 etc.New gearboxes in old shells,
As long as the car is the same as those prepared by the works in the period its OK.
Certain changes in materials will change the cars but this cannot be helped.
The weight must be correct.

[Jules 123]

Getting difficult again though John,
Certain material changes? Why do we "need" to change materials?
Surely if it lasted for 60 years in the original material it will last another if we make it in the same material?
How do we know the original weight?
the pre-war 750 GP formula was 750 kg but a lot of cars were weighed without fuel, oil, water and Wheels believe it or not! do we allow a GP car of 750kg all up weight? when it probably wasn't even under 1000?
God knows how we sort this mess out without just having "play fair" rules and guide lines policed by each other.

J

[john ruston]

I mean by materials the type of steel.You cannot get the same steels as were manufactured 60 years ago.Steel should be replaced by steel.etc
A stated weight for cars should be stated on racing papers and cars weighed with out petrol.This along with capacity checks are not difficult.Whats the proplem?

[terence]

I really dont see that steel type is a problem,because a crank and rods are modern material stucture does not mean that any given engine will perform better,there,s the cylinder head/fueling to consider too.If a head will only breath to say,5000 rpm,what difference does material make? The weight is the main concern I think.

[jamesholland]

Oh Lord, here we go again.

The problem with having hard and fast rules is that people seeking a competitive edge try to find ways round them. Personally I'm more in favour of some sort of benign dictatorship

[Jules 123]

Not a problem John,
I actually agree with the principal you are suggesting, just can't see any way of policing it or any sensible way of actually making the rules without hurting the core backbone of enthusiasts.
You always hear people with say a 1750 Alfa in what they call original form, complaining that they have had their arse whipped by an Austin 7 special and how it shouldn't be allowed! Yep agree, idiots who can't drive should not be allowed on circuits, go away and practice first and then bring your Alfa or whatever back and stop complaining!
My point here is that you get VSCC committee members then jumping up and down and asking for new rules to stop "specials" when quite often the special was more to original form than the so called original car.
The strange opinion amongst a lot of people is that
1. if it looks total crap and un maintained then it must be original.
2. If it is beautifully finished and very fast then it must be non original.
3. If it's an ERA or Maserati then it is 102% original.
3. If it is a Riley or MG and fast it's a special and needs banning.

Scenario.
If I were to win an ERA, would I have to put all the past 60 years of development back to original before being allowed to race?
Why do ERA engines have 250+bhp when originally they had about 160?
How do Talbot and Lagonda engines put out 200+ bhp when they were about 120 pre-war?
Non standard / non original modifications, that's how but for god's sake don't try to stop all the fun! (not saying illegal by the way, just non original and not "works" either)

Where do we draw the line?

I think that if it looks in keeping for the period then welcome it with open arms to VSCC type events.
If it is indisputably correct to period then that should be the criteria for FIA type Exotica events,
Ie.
Carbs exactly as in period photos,
Blowers, exactly like original photos,
Material exactly to WELL KNOWN spec (we can all find mysterious references to development engines made in ally with titanium rods and Beryllium cylinder heads etc, there was even a 5 Litre double overhead cam supercharged Invicta penciled and even a sales brochure made for it, (one guy even claims to have it in his shed )

we have to have sensible guide lines, draw them now and forever hold our peace! "if it ain't original now then it never was!" bad luck if you find a special reference to some special bit the works used once, strangly always just after the famous Billy Wigglewojit died so he can't confirm or Deny it any more.

Thank god I am off my horse now, it was getting a bit high

Jules.

[terence]

Very well put Jules,but these points reffer to ALL types of racing.Developement has far reaching arm,s.I dought that there is any type of engine that performs less than the original "Factory" Race spec,fuel specs,cam specs and not forgetting the all important head porting techniques,these are all different to 50/60yrs ago.Dont get me wrong,I am strictly against any form of cheating/illegal engine mod,s,whatever.These sort of problems do need better policing,but there lies the problem-----!

Also,photograghs only show the external .

[john ruston]

We actually agree in principle but the dictatorship is the answer.
Its OK as long as the race organisers have full grids and as soon as they do not anything goes(it's not only the Masters) and why should they lose money.
Note.Both Talbot and Lagondas race cars at Brooklands gave more than Jules 120bhp in the 30's just in case anyone gets any bright ideas although I was offered a French Talbot 12 cyl a month ago.Shall I send you details Jules!(It's your turn)I'm off to the Rallye des Alps so leave it with you for a week

[Jules 123]

OK 140 then
Good luck with the rally John, Say hello to Macko when you are there.
All a very difficult problem this one guys.
I will have a think for a day or so ;o)

Best regards,
Jules.