[WEC] WEC penalties. Is there an answer?

[flatlandsman]

Sadly this penalty stuff is getting a bit OTT, this series as so do many others seem to only ever want to follow F1 in terms of how they do thigs, you can see it from the race coverage, the replays and now it is drifting into the penalty systems.

OK things that are done wrong need to be penalised, but really does it have to be so complicated and all over the place, I can follow it, but as a newcomer this is all very OTT for people who are new, the team do a great job telling you, but it needs to be less of this.

I dont know the answer sadly.

Was warming to Buemi but that, sorry that was deplorable driving, I love Toyota at the moment their fight against the system is great, but cmon man, that is not fair, the guy nearly put him in the fence at 180mph. How they are doing so well in a car Bopped to hell is amazing.

Ferrari have now won a race so hopefully ACO stop trying so hard to let them win. (joke)

[chernaudi]

As far as penalties, as I said, the WEC should follow the IMSA model and have the race director make the calls (or for technical stuff, with the input of the series tech director). One, the race director for both IMSA and the WEC themselves have a ton of info at their fingertips to allow them to not just spot things, but also make their own decisions.



Two, it'll cut down on time it takes to determine if something's actionable, and how severe the penalty should be if deemed that one should be issued. Not to mention that how the FIA do things with stewards in F1 and the WEC involves a revolving door of officials and hence results from race to race for the same things can significantly differ.


Of course, one issue for the FIA for F1 and the ACO/FIA for the WEC is that the officials on the stewards panel if they become permanent professionals is that they'd expect to be paid. That's one reason why there's not professional juries for criminal or civil tries in most countries. If they're going to be on call for local, state or federal trials, they expect to get paid, not to mention that (IMO) to be a professional juror one should also have a law degree.


Here, the FIA would have to pay people who are professionals in their field (I believe that the officials on the stewards panel are unpaid or very lowly paid volunteers). Same with track workers. Most are volunteers recruited from local or regional sporting associations who are either unpaid or barely paid for their time.



I know that there's a lot of things that some say we should go back to "how it used to be done", but for FIA sanctioned championships, this is one of the "how it used to be done" that has to go IMO.

[flatlandsman]

AS I say I think there needs to be not only a less penalty driven approach, but a move away from F1, that sport is utterly riddled with ridiculous, often pointless penalties that try and make a very weak sport exciting and add drama.

WEC does not need that, yes it might at times, but we all know as fans you are waiting for that final hour., the rest is putting yourself into position. Penalising a car for a guy touching the wing for half a second is pathetic, or as someone said not lifting when the car is miles off line, it's just silly, yes safety is important, but common sense seems to have been utterly ignored here.

I know they are all supposed to know the rules, but some of this is split second reflex stuff that should not be penalised so hugely. They wont moan as they know they will be rollocked if they do, that is also something I loath about modern protectionst motorsport. Yes your brand is important, but not at the exclusion of any kind of criticism.

[Articus]

I didn't have any problem with the penalties issued during the race. Execution is what separates the best from the merely good. Execution is also what allows a car that might not have the ultimate pace, to get a good result.

Toyota had a very fast car, but they made mistakes and didn't win. If you remove all of the obstacles, the races become more deterministic. Winning in WEC is supposed to be hard and teams know that this is an area where they can make a difference even if they don't have the strongest car. It's brilliant and it should not change.

[flatlandsman]

If you are happy to see seemingly endless penalties for very very mediocre things then I can only say fair play to you, I prefer to watch proper racing, not results determined by a few people in a room who are more interested in pedantic rules than actually making the racing more interesting, dynamic and "proper".

I am fully aware that all rules exist for a reason but the nitpickery does sometimes, not always, go beyond the joke and for me this is FIA, F1 is the golden child and it is no shock to me that the emergence of pathetic, very nitpickery rules there has come into other forms of racing.

I have no dog in the race here, I do not support one team more than another, and these comments are nothing to do with that, more the seemingly endless stream of very minor infractions that cause peoples races to be scuppered.

It does not detract from the racing, the drivers or anything, but as I said earlier, I think getting to the end of any WEC race without being penalised is somewhat of an achievement, is that really what we want here? It is broadly similar in IMSA I will add.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

If you are happy to see seemingly endless penalties for very very mediocre things then I can only say fair play to you, I prefer to watch proper racing, not results determined by a few people in a room who are more interested in pedantic rules than actually making the racing more interesting, dynamic and "proper".

I am fully aware that all rules exist for a reason but the nitpickery does sometimes, not always, go beyond the joke and for me this is FIA, F1 is the golden child and it is no shock to me that the emergence of pathetic, very nitpickery rules there has come into other forms of racing.

I have no dog in the race here, I do not support one team more than another, and these comments are nothing to do with that, more the seemingly endless stream of very minor infractions that cause peoples races to be scuppered.

It does not detract from the racing, the drivers or anything, but as I said earlier, I think getting to the end of any WEC race without being penalised is somewhat of an achievement, is that really what we want here? It is broadly similar in IMSA I will add.

I have to admit, I dislike your approach to this conversation. Not liking penalties is one thing (and completely valid), however saying that these are "endless penalties for very very mediocre things" and how you prefer "proper racing", inferring that others do not, is not a very fair approach.

I could flip this round and I don't think you'd like it. If you're happy to see seemingly countless drivers unable to drive on the circuit, or obey the most basic of safety regulations that even an arrive-and-drive go-kart circuit would enforce then I can only say fair play to you. I prefer to watch proper racing, not results determined by the few drivers who ignore the rules and safety of others, and are more interested in cheating their way to a win than racing for it fairly.

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

If you are happy to see seemingly endless penalties for very very mediocre things then I can only say fair play to you, I prefer to watch proper racing, not results determined by a few people in a room who are more interested in pedantic rules than actually making the racing more interesting, dynamic and "proper".

I am fully aware that all rules exist for a reason but the nitpickery does sometimes, not always, go beyond the joke and for me this is FIA, F1 is the golden child and it is no shock to me that the emergence of pathetic, very nitpickery rules there has come into other forms of racing.

I have no dog in the race here, I do not support one team more than another, and these comments are nothing to do with that, more the seemingly endless stream of very minor infractions that cause peoples races to be scuppered.

It does not detract from the racing, the drivers or anything, but as I said earlier, I think getting to the end of any WEC race without being penalised is somewhat of an achievement, is that really what we want here? It is broadly similar in IMSA I will add.

The majority of the penalties were for repeated track limit offences and the long stop/go penalties were all for gaining an unfair advantage by running outside of the regulations (using too much power, tyre pressures below the minimum allowed (both of those after several warnings) and using too many tyres).

[broadrun96]

My problem was PURELY with the bureaucratic pace at which things were decided. Having to run things through 37 people around the world and 7 rounds of votes to determine if a penalty should be issued for being hit or for a yellow that should have be removed based on other times with a car that far off. Sht or get off the pot but you shouldn't need to ask everyone and issue a penalty hours later, that's the issue and makes you look like you have no idea what's going on. Have telemetry and can tell in 5 seconds, have video and can tell Buemi just didn't want to actually drive the circuit. Drag his ass out of the car and park it next lap, you didn't need each team to come to principal's office. And then call the wrong team, makes you look foolish and out of control

[TF110]

Officiating can be difficult and I don't envy those guys for their jobs. But there's gotta be consistency. The Ferrari got hit by the Vette early but there was no penalty.

[chernaudi]

And that's my issue--having to have a stewarding panel of at least 3 officials make the decision and have to call people to the principal's office to explain themselves is bureaucratic seemingly for the sake of bureaucracy. In IMSA (per their rules as in their rule book), the race director is basically god. There, what Beaux Barfield (race director, both in the ALMS from Detroit '08 to the end of 2011, and modern IMSA from COTA '14 to present) says, goes. IMSA does have a stewarding panel, but those officials are only supplementary and advisory, and the race director make the final call on what's actionable, and to what degree. I feel in the WEC that Eduardo Freitas should have the same authority, given that he probably does have more resources than Barfield has at IMSA to make it work.


Again, one can make the argument that the ACO and the FIA have done it this way for years, but this is one time that tradition should take a back seat to practicality and/or efficiency. But then again, if we're going to put things into one guy's hands, he'd better do a good job of it (unlike like Paul Walker in IMSA from '12-14-don't get me started on that moron).


Only time a penalty should be announced or deferred to post race is for technical infringements found post race, or a team files an appeal or protest that has to be heard by the sanctioning body.

[flatlandsman]

I think you will find that a lot of thee penalties are for marginal breaches, as I said in my post, for me there have to be rules, but the amount of penalties for marginal breaches of things is a lot. Yes there have to be rules but I do not really think, as you say it people are cheating they are just doing what every racer has done who wants to win, pushing the limits, yes some might be doing it deliberately but some might be accidents.

Is every track limit breach deliberate? I doubt it, this is a debate to be had in all forms of racing and is lined to track design and the over emphasis on safety over and above all else, something we all agree on, but are now seeing the downsides of with this.

Personally I would rather see a more pragmatic approach, this is seemingly not possible.

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I think you will find that a lot of thee penalties are for marginal breaches, as I said in my post, for me there have to be rules, but the amount of penalties for marginal breaches of things is a lot. Yes there have to be rules but I do not really think, as you say it people are cheating they are just doing what every racer has done who wants to win, pushing the limits, yes some might be doing it deliberately but some might be accidents.

Is every track limit breach deliberate? I doubt it, this is a debate to be had in all forms of racing and is lined to track design and the over emphasis on safety over and above all else, something we all agree on, but are now seeing the downsides of with this.

Personally I would rather see a more pragmatic approach, this is seemingly not possible.

They will have been warned several times about tyre pressures and over use of power. If they then get a penalty it's not an accident is it.

If drivers didn't keep going off track deliberately, they have enough warnings available to account for being forced off etc.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by airbusA346

They will have been warned several times about tyre pressures and over use of power. If they then get a penalty it's not an accident is it. If drivers didn't keep going off track deliberately, they have enough warnings available to account for being forced off etc.

Agreed.

[flatlandsman]

The thing is there are numerous things that can affect tyre pressure, and also there are numerous things that can cause off track issues.

I have huge sympathy for stewards, they are only enforcing rules, but it is getting a little like VAR at times, as I say it seems a victory to finish a race without getting penalised as just about everyone catches one sometimes

My point is mainly, do we really need such stringent rules about everything. You must know the one I am talking about with the poor mechanic who put his hand out to touch a wing as the car came into his box, and the team were penalised, I mean that was a reflex action, is that really a safety thing, they are only doing the penalty because otherwise someone would moan who was near them in position. Dont you agree some of these rules need tidying up?

Yes it breaks the rules, but really, are we going that far?

I agree with you actually about pressure and off track, that has been around a long time, and needs enforcing, but some of the other stuff just seems a little "can we not just have some common sense in there aswell"

[Articus]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

The thing is there are numerous things that can affect tyre pressure, and also there are numerous things that can cause off track issues.

The minimum tire pressures are a safety issue. This is mandated by Michelin to prevent tire failures. Lower tire pressure increases peformance so without any regulations teams would push the limit and end with failures and accidents in the races. Numerous things can affect tire pressure, so you overinflate them to account for it. It's no different to using ballast to meet the minimum weight while also accounting for weight loss due to tire wear and plank wear. If you build in a margin a safety, you won't fail any test.

There are numerous things that can cause off track issues, which is why the cars get a certain amount of infractions before they get a penalty.

[flatlandsman]

What was telling was the look on Buemi's face, that spoiled brat look, then he made it worse by ignoring blue flags. I will say another thing, and sorry, again Buemi 100% to blame and I doubt you will find many who think otherwise.

Again the rules are the same for everyone, but a drive through for disrespecting yellow flags, OK fair cop, but if all you have to do is lift the gas, is that really slowing you down much? Is that really helping the track crews that much? Is that really fair to ram a 30 second penalty on for such a minor transgression, and even then, it happened about 2 bloody hours before it was issued!" so the crew have no chance at all to push and make up any time.

I am sorry but the stewarding here left a lot to be desired

[chernaudi]

And I think back to two events in 2007 in the ALMS, namely St. Petersburg where Romain Dumas blocked Allan McNish and tried to run him into the pit wall. That lead to IMSA ruling that after LM, when the green flag comes out, you go. You don't, whatever happens, happens.



Also, Stefan Johannson threw an insane block and Marco Werner at Laguan Seca later that season, and got drilled and got a puncture. He then was nailed (due to the puncture) by a Dyson Porsche and knocked off the road. IMSA ultimately parked Johannson for the rest of the race for his blocking and aggressive driving.



And for incidents including St. Pete, IMSA penalized Dumas following Mosport, initially fining him $25,000, and penalizing him 6 drivers' championship points, though the points penalty and $20K of the fine was suspended until the end of the season as long as he didn't draw the ire of IMSA race control until season's end (basically putting him on probation for the rest of the season).


Point is that in general, throwing blocks like that (and like what Buemi did) is highly frowned upon by most race directors, and if you get taken out, it's basically your fault.


And yes, the point is being labored and dragged out. However, I'm posting this just to demonstrate that there has been a precedent for this for quite a few years, namely that the blocker is responsible for anything that happens, including his demise as far as being a factor in the race if it comes to that. Most of the responsibility for a clean overtake is with the overtaking car/driver, but it doesn't excuse the one being passed from making idiotic, dimwitted or hamfisted moves.

[flatlandsman]

This is a discussion area, not a lets post stats all day. This is a valid discussion and I see no issue with there being a few posts about it, it decided a race for two teams.

I think the issue maybe is that Estre is hardly a shrinking violet and has done numerous things over the years to suggest he might have done the same thing where the boot on the other foot, therefore I would submit a few don't really like him, fair enough.

I would say the only point Davidson made that was valid was the vision issue of seeing a car behind but not necessarily being aware he has a wheel at your inside left rear wing area, that is tricky. But Estre's exit was superb he had the right to go where he did and was shoved twice off the track, the stewards saw little in what he did wrong, and this could, if that second shove on the kerb had been bigger, been a Bamber type accident.

There were a lot of moves that were sketchy, the Peugeot team were notable for late moving under braking into T1 as was Milesi a couple of times, it is not on, if you are already in the braking area and someone moves suddenly in front of you that is not a great idea.

Yet they got away with it, so expect it to continue.

However if a mechanic touches a car by reflex accident, that is easily worth a 30 second drive thru, not lifting throttle past a yellow when everyone else lifts for a tenth of a second (and probably scrubs off 5 mph) and get away with it, is worth a drive through, for a car pulled over on the exit of a hairpin 20 yards off line.

yes some of this is driver error, but what would you rather call dangerous, lifting for a tenth past a yellow, or moving under braking from a 190mph straight into a first gear hairpin.

Consistency with stewarding is the issue, nothing else.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

However if a mechanic touches a car by reflex accident, that is easily worth a 30 second drive thru, not lifting throttle past a yellow when everyone else lifts for a tenth of a second (and probably scrubs off 5 mph) and get away with it, is worth a drive through, for a car pulled over on the exit of a hairpin 20 yards off line.

I know this is a bit OT but boy oh boy.... I think that was unreasonably harsh.

[chernaudi]

In the old ALMS days, doing that was worth an added 15-20 seconds to a pit stop if it was caught by an official (same as a crewman not having his goggles or gloves on or on right, or the visor on his helmet not closed, and too many men working on the car at one time).


It was illegal to do anything that was considered to be servicing to the car aside from cleaning the windscreen or helping with a driver change (and even then only one other person could help with the latter) while the car was being refueled, and only 4 people aside from a driver assistant (also counts for cleaning the windscreen) could work on the car at one time unless it was in the garage area.

[flatlandsman]

Sorry but posting stats endlessly is not new for me either, each to their own, I would prefer a separate thread for that kind of stuff, but that is not going to happen is it!!

I simply feel that if a reflex action means the poor guy accidentally touches the car, this is not something that should be penalised, yes it is a mistake, but it is a very harsh penalty, it is not like a driver error like Buemi's he simply put his hand out to sort of fake stop the car!! What would you do if a car was blatting towards you are 50kph!!

Sadly we live in a world where F1 makes the rules and everyone follows, they have pathetic penalties for all sorts of nonsense it is one the things that turned me off the sport, and now it is creeping into so many other forms of racing. WEC is big enough now to stand alone, be different, cut this garbage out a bit.

Most of them are sensible, reasonable and fair, but for me enforcing a penalty for a waved yellow non lift with 50 minutes to go when the incident happened nearly two hours previous is a nonsense and I would not be shocked if eventually the teams demand quicker actions are enforced.

[chernaudi]

Not to drag out this issue, and I'm not a huge fan of F1, but where else would you rather the WEC draw inspiration from for their rules and how they enforce, legislate and interpret them? NASCAR? I don't think so, and they for sure are not IMO bastions for fair or consistent rules enforcement, let alone conjuring or interpreting them.


I do think that the IMSA model where the race director is the Captain of the ship and generally what he says goes should be adhered to here. IMO it for sure worked in the days of the ALMS and such just fine even if some calls were questionable (sometimes even questioned on air by commentators), but at least the decisions were made quickly.


Enough of me droning on about that point. And yes, I'm no fan of the ACO or the FIA copying the F1 model for somethings (like favoring Grade 1 tracks for the VIPs and such), but I also for sure don't want to see them emulate the NASCAR model. Either do your own thing, or if you're gonna emulate or copy someone, do what IMSA is doing and has done for quite a few years now (probably dating back to the IMSA GT days prior to the ALMS).

[Articus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I do think that the IMSA model where the race director is the Captain of the ship and generally what he says goes should be adhered to here. IMO it for sure worked in the days of the ALMS and such just fine even if some calls were questionable (sometimes even questioned on air by commentators), but at least the decisions were made quickly.

The driving standard in IMSA is much lower. I'm not sure it should be a reference to what works. The driving standard in WEC is higher because of the enforcement of penalties.

[chernaudi]

First of all, there's a race control/penalty thread elsewhere on here, secondly, go back and look at how the ALMS was done back when Marty Kauffman, Tim Mayer and Beaux Barfield were the race directors (1999-2011). Though myself didn't agree with some of Marty's, Tim's or even Beaux's calls back then, they within at most 5 minutes of the infarction had a penalty handed down and there was often little recourse for appeal unless the team was instantly able to provide compelling evidence to the contrary.


And though I don't watch these races live (outside of Le Mans), I wouldn't say that by following the threads here that IMSA's current driving standards are much different from the WEC, given some of the questionable stuff some WEC drivers have pulled at several of this year's races (including Le Mans).


I'd even argue in the 2006-2008 period especially that overall driving standards as far as pros vs pros was as good if not better than now. Issue back then was pros vs ams and ams vs ams. In that area, I do think that the am and pro-am drivers have stepped up their game now vs back then, though IMO both can cause their own issues (ams back in the ALMS/LMS days being more wayward and inconsistent and frankly unskilled, in the present era they're better but that sometimes makes them harder for pros to dispense with since they're not dealing with as many slouches or pushovers). Issue nowadays is mostly pro vs pro and am vs am fratricide as far where drivers fit in with their skill sets.


Also, back in the ALMS and LMS days, many of the drivers did come from the touring car and GT ranks as far as prototype drivers. It was later in that era that a lot of drivers got recruited from the open wheel ranks and they brought that mentality with them.



IMO, there's been plenty of questionable moves made in both IMSA and the WEC, and even the WEC issuing more penalties hasn't curbed their issues (not helped IMO by taking forever compared to IMSA to issue penalties, due to the steward's rule by committee and calling people to race control to explain themselves or voice their grievances for the aggrieved party).

[Articus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

IMO, there's been plenty of questionable moves made in both IMSA and the WEC, and even the WEC issuing more penalties hasn't curbed their issues (not helped IMO by taking forever compared to IMSA to issue penalties, due to the steward's rule by committee and calling people to race control to explain themselves or voice their grievances for the aggrieved party).

The IMSA race at Road America had more dodgy driving than the entire season of WEC.