"Better than half the excrement they watch in Europe"

[D.R.T.]

Yesterday's Auto Action ran a quote from Mark Skaife. " Better than half the excrement they watch in Europe"

This was in reference to Skaife pointing out to European journo's how entertaining the v8's were.

Now just me thinking out loud, by when is the last time Skaife opened his eyes, stood up, removed his lips from v8 Supercars rather large behind and watched European racing (outside of F1).

This isnt meant to be a flame or anything of the sort. Just an indication of the mentality of those within the V8 paddock. Apparently it is not confined to v8 management anymore.

[storyline]

Interesting that he lumps (very ban pun, I know!) races such as Le Mans, Nurburgring 24 Hrs, Spa etc into this statement, isn't it?

[Robert Ryan]

Interesting that he lumps (very ban pun, I know!) races such as Le Mans, Nurburgring 24 Hrs, Spa etc into this statement, isn't it?

From the Club Racing I saw on British and German TV, he maybe right.

[storyline]

The same could be said of Club Racing in Australia though - couldn't it?

[GTRMagic]

A sling off at BTCC supremo (and JC's manager) Alan Gow perhaps?

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

A sling off at BTCC supremo (and JC's manager) Alan Gow perhaps?

A direct slap in the face, I'd say.

Marky-poo must still be a little upset that James didn't want to be his friend.

[pete55]

Just Mark Skaife's ego talking. He has never been short of that.

[Robert Ryan]

The same could be said of Club Racing in Australia though - couldn't it?

Yes but the TV presentation, the Mickey Mouse circuits(some looked like glorified Kart tracks) and general presentation of the cars leaves a bit to be desired.

[storyline]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Yes but the TV presentation, the Mickey Mouse circuits(some looked like glorified Kart tracks) and general presentation of the cars leaves a bit to be desired.

And this doesn't equally apply here?

As an example, I was re-watching Adelaide Race 1 this morning and was starting to get a headache - then realised why.

Between Crompton and Diffeys voice I started to realise that Diffey has one hell of a scratchy voice - to the point at the end of the race it was becomig painful to listen to. So, IMHO, TV presentation here is not 100% either.

And, given a couple of tracks they run on here, at least one permanent circuit is well beyond its Use By date (Oran Park) for the simple reason it was designed when cars had roughly half the horsepower they have now. As for street circuits - again using Adelaide as a reference point - there are a couple of corners there just waiting to cause a major major accident and, possible, very serious injuries (the design of the barriers one at least one corner are such that sooner rather than later a car is going to get 'wedged' coming out of the corner. And then seeing on another corner a 240 volt power lead draped over the top of the barrier running down the TRACK side of the barrier (not sure of the corner number but if oyu count each turn from the start line it is around T4 or 5).

[RotorFan]

Originally Posted by storyline

As an example, I was re-watching Adelaide Race 1 this morning and was starting to get a headache - then realised why.

Between Crompton and Diffeys voice I started to realise that Diffey has one hell of a scratchy voice - to the point at the end of the race it was becomig painful to listen to.

Wow, you too? I experienced the very same thing. I rarely re-watch coverage, but I was bored so I took it out - and found I couldn't sit through it! Its bad enough when its live, but when its not his mannerisms poke out even more. Its just constant constant droning and droning (if nothings happening, it'll be "on board with lowndes, looking back at skaife" - and its booming, booming all the time). Enough whinging...

British commentary (I've found) needs getting used to. I used to dislike Ben Edwards and Martin Haven but now I've heard more of them (Sebring, A1GP) I think they're among the best commentators. I think its not half bad ( ). John Watson is really, really good too. He should be commentating F1 (apparently he used to in the 90's on Eurosport).

Originally Posted by storyline

And, given a couple of tracks they run on here, at least one permanent circuit is well beyond its Use By date (Oran Park) for the simple reason it was designed when cars had roughly half the horsepower they have now.

Whats wrong with Oran Park? The only thing I can see is that it needs resurfacing and the ammenities improved. The last thing thats wrong with it is the design! Its sensational!

I'm not sure what all this talk about "kart tracks" is. Are we saying that if a car has 600 horsepower it shouldn't be run on circuits with tight radius corners? If thats the case all our circuits would be Tilke-rings and rather boring if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Storyline..I hope you are a Comedian, because that would be one of the funniest jokes I have heard. British Motorsport TV is generally deplorable.

At least they have a motorsport channel.

Originally Posted by mac

I would say V8s probably are better than "half" the motorsport that is televised in Europe.

I'd agree. The racing is better than all of DTM, BTCC, FIA GT and they're meant to be the top categories. But I appreciate the other aspects of these series more than the V8s (e.g. that they will allow more than two manufacturers in).

I think Skaife is right - but he could have chosen better words if he knew he'd be quoted.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

I'd agree. The racing is better than all of DTM, BTCC, FIA GT and they're meant to be the top categories.

Is it ? I fail to see where there this idea of brilliant racing in v8's comes from, propaganda maybe ? V8's are loud, big cars and qualify close (they should though) but the 'racing' side of the category is lacking. For example Reverse Grids anyone.

BTCC uses reverse grids aswell, however those guys really have a go and dont have to be worried about be black flagged for sneezing, which happens in v8's.

DTM is the most pure (less contrived) in terms of entertainment and that helps with its racing.

Originally Posted by RotorFan

I think Skaife is right - but he could have chosen better words if he knew he'd be quoted.

That was the original intention of the thread, discussing the attitudes of those in V8s and Avesco in regard to other motorsport categories in Australia and Internationally.

Personally I think he is wrong, but thats not the point. It seems that these days Avesco is writing its press (hey whats new) but now drivers/teams are starting to believe it. There is a certain level of arrogance running around the in the category.

[alfacors]

He did say half though - not all

[Robert Ryan]

As an example, I was re-watching Adelaide Race 1 this morning and was starting to get a headache - then realised why.

Between Crompton and Diffeys voice I started to realise that Diffey has one hell of a scratchy voice - to the point at the end of the race it was becomig painful to listen to. So, IMHO, TV presentation here is not 100% either.

Storyline..I hope you are a Comedian, because that would be one of the funniest jokes I have heard. British Motorsport TV is generally deplorable.

And, given a couple of tracks they run on here, at least one permanent circuit is well beyond its Use By date (Oran Park) for the simple reason it was designed when cars had roughly half the horsepower they have now. As for street circuits - again using Adelaide as a reference point

Some of the run down things they were using in "The Old Dart" were awful..make Oran Park look lavish. I can see what Scaife is meaning by "excretable". I would have to agree.

[storyline]

Mayeb we should make Skaife go and run on the original Taupo track in NZ then - and see what he has to say afterwards.

[Robert Ryan]

original Taupo track in NZ then - and see what he has to say afterwards.

Track maybe awful...but the rest would be still better than the "English experience"

[D.R.T.]

I just hope someone got in the Journo's ear and made it clear, that not all people in Australia think like he does.

I hope to they didnt speak to Cochrane either.

[Falcadore]

Skaife's been a passionate believer in his own publicity since he was a teenager. I'm sure European journos have come across many clones of Skaife before.

But bearing in mind, V8Supercar is our pinnacle of the sport. It's as far removed from British club level racing.

Holden Racing Team have a pretty fancy garage with their HSV satellite shed next door and could well claim to be amongt the best in Australia, but Britain has Williams Grand Prix Engineering, Red Bull Racing, Honda F1 (along with Prodrive 'stablemates' Subaru WRC and Aston Martin GT), Malcolm Wilsons Ford WRC operation, MF1, Triple 8's Vauxhall based head office, Lola Cars, Van Diemen and the architectural tour de force that is McLaren.

Is Renault F1 still in Britain?

Any case. There's pinnacles and pinnacles obviously.

[Woolley]

Speaking as one who has marshalled all the major touring car series (Aussie V8s, WTCC, DTM, BTCC) and hasn't read Mark's comments, here's my take on things.

BTCC. Other than the marshals who like to follow 'important' series, their is a general apathy to this series. Spectator crowds are good, but nothing on what they used to be. The cars are less than exciting and the racing - bumper car style - frankly deplorable. Awful driving standards which are having a poor effect on British racing in general. A couple of handsful of cars, few of which are really competitive. A small number of star drivers, including arguably one of the best Touring Car drivers in the World, otherwise home grown drivers, mostly providing a budget. Generally I try to avoid them. If I want messing around, I can go to the GP. British cirucits are generally fairly good with a wide variety. Promoter seems to think he's God, sometimes, and the politics is tiresome. 4/10

WTCC. Manufacturer series, star drivers, still not fully competitve across the makes and a lot of fiddling going on to try and sort that. Cars similar to BTCC, in being highly strung and not too exciting and races very short. A bit to much barging and shoving still. First year on their own without the GT series, remains to see how they'll go as a stand alone series. Better than BTCC, but I still wouldn't travel far for them. A mixture of great circuits and some seriously cruddy. Some politics, but mostly internal and not yet distracting. 6/10, possible improving.

DTM. Awesome racing cars, though not really Touring Cars in the true sense, really sports cars with a roof. Top flight drivers. Only two manufacturers, and possibly suffers from team orders syndrome. With official works teams, then unofficial works teams, the racing can't truly be called free some of the time, particularly when some questionable spoiling tactics get used. RAce format is good, and surprisingly for such high-tech cars, when they're allowed to race, they can. Circuits range from good to real Mickey-Mouse, but Norisring is spectacular. Limited politics mainly because the manufacturers are desperate to promote the series. 8/10

Aussie V8s. Beasts. Genuinely exciting cars which move around and allow you to see how hard the driver is working. Two manufacturers is not a hinderence as it is teams which are important, so there are no restrictions on racing. Brand loyalty from fans is both good and bad - genuine excitement when the team goes well accompanied by inability to look beyond the brand or driver. Your favourite driver/team/manufacturer can do wrong, your most despised opponent can do well, but the fans don't seem to notice that. Racing is good -the cars can pass, but less than pinpoint handling leads to some contentious accidents. Generally though, behaviour is pretty good, if application of the rules is sometimes suspect. Home grown drivers but with international profile, and a smattering of returning sons gives European fans a benchmark - we're well familiar with Courtney and Radisich, for instance, plus the addition of drivers such as Priaulx and Muller for the two driver races adds interest. Range of race formats makes for good variety, mixture of circuits from some kart tracks through to the awesome Bathurst - one of the world's great events. Street circuits are also much better than average. Politics are a real downside, particualrly the horse trading of cirucits by a promoter that's got a worse fault than thinking he's God - he seems to think he's Bernie. The shambles of China and the riding roughshod over NZ re street cirucits/Pukekohe was shameful. 8/10, would be 9 if not for the politics.

So Skaife has, IMO, a point. I've seen all of these series in the last 3 years. V8s are the only one's that made the eyes widen and the heart beat faster.

[observer]

Nic post Woolley!

[mac]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Brand loyalty from fans is both good and bad - genuine excitement when the team goes well accompanied by inability to look beyond the brand or driver. Your favourite driver/team/manufacturer can do wrong, your most despised opponent can do well, but the fans don't seem to notice that.

Nothing irritates me more. It is embarassing at times - and remains the biggest blight on the series IMO.

That and safety car restarts with lapped cars between the safety car and the leader.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by mac

Nothing irritates me more. It is embarassing at times - and remains the biggest blight on the series IMO.

That and safety car restarts with lapped cars between the safety car and the leader.

Well if you want safety cars done properly, you've only got to look at the States where they invented them. Aus GP did better than most, other than dealing with overtaking under flags in the in-between period, but European attempts are usually laughable, if not downright dangerous. V8s seem to deal with the 'getting the file under control' bit but the restarts are often shambolic due to lapped cars, and LMES does it just the same with much the same results.

The brand loyalty is an interesting one to me. It was stunning at Surfers to hear the cheers - the passion - when Ambrose went out. Europe generally doesn't get into it's motorsports in quite the same way, and it was part of the excitement that the crowd took it so seriously. The downside is that you get the European football syndrome, where your team is the greatest, despite being bottom of the league, and another is dire, even though they're winning and showing sublime skill. The reality is somewhere between, but at least the Aussies care. This is also the difference I find between European and Australian commentators. The Aussies do put over the event well, and there is some very good insight into the psychology of racing. The Europeans tend to stand back a bit, and talk about it much as you would discuss an oil painting, all subtlety and detail. An overtaking manouevre over here tends to be met with polite applause (unless Nigel Mansell is involved.) I suspect Haven and Diffey would get on very well together...

I loved the intensity, and you shouldn't be embarrassed about it, but hold a sense of reality too. Sometimes your hero does have a crap race, and sometimes the opposition is really on the ball, but there are a lot of seriously talented guys out there. Anyone who can hold a candle to Andy Priaulx is seriously good, and there are plenty of V8 drivers who would hold their own in any Touring Car or Sports Car series in the world. In fact, I think it's a great shame that they're not properly represented at Le Mans, where I think they could spring a few surprises.

[billy bigtime]

Typical Skaife comment. When he grows up and is allowed to run his own Team, his attitude may change. If I had paid $10mill. for a Team I'm not allowed to run, and the Sponsorship can be taken away at anytime, I'd have a pretty bad attitude as well.

[Grimace]

Originally Posted by billy bigtime

Typical Skaife comment. When he grows up and is allowed to run his own Team, his attitude may change. If I had paid $10mill. for a Team I'm not allowed to run, and the Sponsorship can be taken away at anytime, I'd have a pretty bad attitude as well.

[doug05]

I have to agree with Woolley's comments, they are quite good. Just a question to those who have disagreed with Skaife's comment, is it simply because of a dislike for the guy which then tints your non-skaife coloured glasses, or would you actually prefer not to have V8's racing, and to just watch the Eurpoean touring car stuff???

[Robert Ryan]

But bearing in mind, V8Supercar is our pinnacle of the sport. It's as far removed from British club level racing.

That is what Scaife was talking about.