Spectator Safety

[Chris Stockdale]

In recent years alot of spectators have seriosly injured and even killed watching the sport that they love. More recently somebody was even killed last
year at an event but what are the orginisers doing about it. How many more people have to be injured or have their life taken away?

[Alpina]

Check your history. People have been killed at motorsport events throughout the history of motorsport. Events that stand out in my memory are that terrible Le Mans, Portugese rally in 1986? RS200 hitting a kid in Ireland 1986? the kid that was killed at Otterburn in 2000. It has always happened and in fact probably happens less now.

[jase]

Just want to add, that organisers do a lot of work in the name of safety, the number of accidents involving spectators is minimal.

The biggest problem I have seen are spectators standing in roped off ares which are there for a cars' run-off, you stand in there against both instructions and common sence (it has to be roped off for a reason) then it's your own look out - Carlos Sainz' accident on the Rally GB in 2001.

Don't forget you are standing alongside a relatively thin track with cars passing you at very high speeds.

[EvilPumpkin]

I have heard many many stories similiar to this. Marshals repeatedly ask people to move and explain the dangers to them - and are ignored. At the very least they're ignored. In a lot of cases they're subjected to verbal and even physical abuse.

It's one of the main reasons I don't do rallys. I think that if rally fans are really concerned, then what needs to be done is someone organises a fan/spectator club. As part of that, you explain to people the dangers of disregarding the safety instructions they're given and instruct them in some basic courtesies. I think you'll find this will go a llong way to reducing the potential for accidents and may increase the amount of marshals.

This is not to say that all rally spectators are idiots/abusive - far from it. I have no doubt that 99% of rally spectators are really great people. Problem is, I've only ever got to meet the unpleasant ones - usually because
I'm trying to explain to them that standing in the middle of the track when there are cars coming is not a very good idea.

Motorsport is dangerous - it says so on the ticket, on the programme and usually all over signs on fences. But it becomes a lot more dangerous if you ignore the safety precautions that are put in place to help protect you.

[shiny side up!]

I saw what EP is talking about just this weekend in Sweden. Some spectators actually untied the ropes that mark the spectator area and moved them so they could be right on the side of the stage route. The marshals came, and called them out on it, at which point the spectators started throwing empty beer cans at the marshals and calling them names, generally being a bunch on arses. Thank goodness nobody ended up hurt, but the blatant disregard for the safety rules is asinine...

[EvilPumpkin]

Well there's something else - should rally spectators be allowed to drink alcohol, given the dangerous nature of the areas they're standing in?

[Alpina]

Having done a fair amount of marshalling in the UK and once in Ireland I have to say that marshals are given a fair amount of goodwill. They are also given the power to delay or cancel the stage. My biggest arguments have been with the photographers who think that the press pass makes them immune to bodily harm! marshals are given training and are certified (!) they know what they are doing. Mostly

[EvilPumpkin]

LOL - ah yes, invisible force field syndrome - that happens with photographers at circuit racing as well. I'm glad your experiences have been better than mine Alpina, but I'm still of the belief that better spectator control and making spectators understand the dangers of what is going on around them is the key to improving overall safety. What do you think?

[shiny side up!]

I think you would have a really hard time banning alcohol, especially at a rally, where the spectators may or may not have paid and may or may not have come throught the entrances you expected them to... I'm sure the folks I saw on stage 10 dancing around their campfire, in the snow, in their underwear, would not be too keen on having their beer taken away...

[EvilPumpkin]

*shrug* I'm simply suggesting that behaviour and safety might improve if people weren't getting steadily drunker. It's less of an issue at permanent circuits where spectators have limited access to the circuit at best and there are fences etc.

The original post in this thread states that the organisers are responsible for making things safer - that's one of the ways it could be done.

I agree - I don't think it would be popular and I don't think it would be adhered to. But I also believe that the people who would complain the loudest would also be the first people to blame everyone but themselves if they got injured.

As I'm sure you're aware, Ireland had a very bad accident record last year - drivers, co-drivers, marshals and spectators injured and killed. The time is not far away when it will no longer be possible to get insured for this kind of event. I agree something needs to be done. What I believe is that the fingers are being pointed in the wrong direction and there are some fundamental changes required in attitude before any safety improvements will be effective.

[racer69]

There have been some accidents, but really the problem's we have now don't compare to Portugal in the early to mid-80s, especially in Sintra.

There is only so much that the organisers can do, especially in forest rallies. The forest is so big that people can just about sneak anywhere.

[avsfan733]

why is it neccasarily the organizers job? If they provide the safety areas and the marshalls, Why are they then responsible for babysitting the drunk fans? I see it as a case of...okay u got hit by a rally car....your an idiot! I know this doesn't always apply but for the most part its true, how many fans have been injured or killed as a direct result of the organizers putting them in harms way. The people you feel bad for are the crews and drivers and intelligent fans because the minority (or in the rare case severe majority) can ruin it for everyone.

[EvilPumpkin]

avsfan - that's exactly the way I feel about it. I have heard of several incidents like this in Europe - where spectators have been asked to move and refused - and have then been injured.

However, we live in a world where people can sue for the silliest things. Contributory negligence doesn't seem to hold down the awards any and the legal system does seem to take a dim view of motorsport.

It doesn't seem to matter that the organisers/safety crews/marshals did everything reasonably within their power to prevent injury - if an injury occurs, they still get blamed. This doesn't just apply to rallying either - it happens in circuit racing and across all areas of the sport. I have heard of drivers suing organisers because they were injured during racing - and winning their case. It's very disturbing. I have no problem with someone suing if they're entitled to do so - say, if a fence fell on them because it wasn't fixed in properly. That's only fair. But to sue because you stuffed up your race and injured yourself - due to your own bad driving or just a standard racing incident - it's cases like this that will kill amateur motorsport in all its forms. People simply won't be able to afford to race anymore.

Sad, but that's the way it is - and not just in motorsport.

[Speeddemon555]

For example, last week's Swedish Rally when they help a stricken privateer Peugeot out of the ditch and the crowd didn't wave Rovanparra to slow down. Everyone in the crowd was helping with car until they saw his red Peugeot was coming and crashed right into it. Everyone got out of the way in time and there was no way that Rovanparra could slow down in time to avoid the blockage. Someone could have been seriously injured or killed.

Another one was the Great Britain rally where Carlos Sainz's Ford slid right into the crowd that was standing to watch the rally cars go by. Thirteen people ended up in the hospital and the organizers had to take crowd safety measures to ensure the prevention of another incident.

The Swedish organizers will have to reexamine some crowd safety measures after that stage eight incident to ensure that if an accident of a rally car blocked the road and the crowd is helping out. Someone will have to warned the other rally driver to slow down or have a marshall radioed the stage area to stop other rally cars and delay the stage until it is safe to return to rally.

[avsfan733]

think i would agree that that was a bad situation but things like this do happen. Personally if someone were to sue about getting hit becasue they were outside the standard spectator areas shouldn't the drivers/teams counter sue for the damage casued and the loss in revenue? I can't see a lawsuit standing in the face of that

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Speeddemon555
For example, last week's Swedish Rally when they help a stricken privateer Peugeot out of the ditch and the crowd didn't wave Rovanparra to slow down. Everyone in the crowd was helping with car until they saw his red Peugeot was coming and crashed right into it. Everyone got out of the way in time and there was no way that Rovanparra could slow down in time to avoid the blockage. Someone could have been seriously injured or killed.

The problem here is that spectators haven't had any training in how to handle an incident. I can appreciate the desire to help, but they could well turn a minor crash into a disaster; if you can't do it safely, don't do it at all!

[ss_collins]

Looking at the pictures of the wyedean in MN today I was horrified to see some daft woman pushing her pram along the stage with a car bearing down on her. It begs two questions - how thick and people be? and where were the marshals? the second question I'm sure has a sensible and reasonable answer as the rally is run by perfectly capable people.

[Lee Janotta]

Motorsport's dangerous. If people can't get that thru their heads, maybe it's best a rally car plow through them.

Get in the way, you're gonna get hurt! It's as simple as that!

[avsfan733]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Motorsport's dangerous. If people can't get that thru their heads, maybe it's best a rally car plow through them.

Get in the way, you're gonna get hurt! It's as simple as that!

You would wish and hope that it was that simple and people could get it through their drunken heads!

[SJ Spode]

Originally posted by Speeddemon555
For example, last week's Swedish Rally when they help a stricken privateer Peugeot out of the ditch and the crowd didn't wave Rovanparra to slow down.

The in-car footage I saw on the TV seemed to show that fans were trying to wave Harri down but that he ignored them (which to an extent I don't blame as he couldn't tell what if anything was ahead).

The difference between this incident and the Duval crash on Day One was that Duval's co-driver was up the stage and slowed Schwarz, but Duval and Fortin knew that their rally was over whereas Pykalisto could have continued once the car was back on it's wheels.

In rallying spectators often play a key role in getting a car back into the event, so to ban them from getting involved at times would be counter-productive, but the marshalling (inc; using flags) & other technology (GPS, radio/text messages) has got to be improved upon.

[EvilPumpkin]

*deep breath* Ok......

If spectators want to marshal, let them volunteer to be marshals. I'm sure any rally organiser would be thrilled to have 20-30 people willing to do everything they expect to do as spectators - but under proper supervision and with some training. You're either watching or you're participating. It's unsafe to try to do both - especially untrained.

One of the things that I always find disturbing is watching a horde of fans descending on an overturned car and turning it back over with the driver and co-driver still in it. You wouldn't do this at any other type of event - or even at an RTA on a public road. If any occupant of the car was injured, turning the car over that way could aggravate the injury, making things worse. In extreme cases, it could be the difference between someone who walks again and someone who spends the rest of their life in a wheelchair. Luck on this one can only hold out for so long. Think how you'd feel if you were only trying to help and you wound up killing someone instead. If you want to turn cars over - LEARN TO MARSHAL! If you want to watch rallys - SPECTATE!

Marshals should NOT be responsible for spectator control. Marshalling requires concentration and the ability to react quickly to any situation. You can't complain that someone's flagging is not very good when they're actually trying to deal with (for example) some idiot woman pushing her pram along the track.

Drivers should only have to react to the appropriate flag signals. I can't reasonably see how any driver, going at speed, is expected to determine the difference between fans waving them down because of an incident and fans clapping their hands out in front of them to demonstrate support. Even at 60mph in good visibility, it's going to look very similar - at faster speeds or in poor visibility, they probably only see blurs. That's why we have FLAGS. Drivers look out for them, they know what they mean from the colour and they take appropriate action.

If a fan wants to marshal - go do it. PLEASE! There are many organisations that will welcome you with open arms.

If a fan wants to spectate, then that's fine too. But don't get involved in activities that you are not trained for. The life you save could be your own. The life you destroy will probably be someone else's.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by SJ Spode
In rallying spectators often play a key role in getting a car back into the event, so to ban them from getting involved at times would be counter-productive, but the marshalling (inc; using flags) & other technology (GPS, radio/text messages) has got to be improved upon.

EP has said it all, really, but let me just add:

Spectators must not take it upon themselves to control & deal with an incident; they do not have the training, the authority nor, crucially, the insurance cover to do so.

I wouldn't blame a driver for not slowing down when spectators were trying to wave him down - their signals have no official standing & could be malicious.

If you're not happy with the standard of rally marshalling, stop whingeing & get marshalling!

[Alpina]

One of the things that I always find disturbing is watching a horde of fans descending on an overturned car and turning it back over with the driver and co-driver still in it. You wouldn't do this at any other type of event - or even at an RTA on a public road. If any occupant of the car was injured, turning the car over that way could aggravate the injury, making things worse. In extreme cases, it could be the difference between someone who walks again and someone who spends the rest of their life in a wheelchair.

Actually this is the right thing to do! The difference between a rally car and a road car is the cage, seats and harness. If a competitor is injured in the car you do not move them unless you have to. it is easier to get someone out of a right way up car than an inverted one.

[EvilPumpkin]

Alpina, the problem is determining if a driver or co-driver is actually injured.

Problems are not always immediately apparant and asking "can you wiggle your toes" is not a full enough medical check to rule out the possibility of a spinal injury. Drivers are usually hyped up with adrenaline and if they're not actually unconscious, may be unaware they are injured. I have seen cases where bikers get back on their bikes with broken ankles and finish a race. A couple of years back, we had a driver get out of a car under his own steam after a collision, only to discover after he'd cooled off a bit that his back was sore. Turned out he had 2 fractured vertebrae.

Then there was the 12 year old karter who finished a race and when he came into the pits it turned out his leg was broken. That's just over the last couple of years. Ask any marshal and they'll be able to tell you a dozen stories like it.

Adrenaline is funny stuff and spinal injuries can be very difficult to detect, even when you know what you're looking for. Since every racer, regardless of transport type, is totally dedicated to finishing the race, their initial perceptions are not always reliable, because their initial perceptions are based on getting back into the race.

As marshals, we are taught about the mechanism of injuries, how they can happen, how to determine the status of a potential casualty and also how to turn over cars in a safe manner.

I'm not saying getting someone out of a car is easier when it's the right way up - of course it is. But there is a huge difference between a controlled turn over of a car with the casualty properly managed and the alternative which is 20 guys going "1-2-3- HEAVE" which is what I have witnessed being done by spectators. I have no doubt they have the best of intentions - but that isn't going to help the guy with the neck fracture who's getting rattled around like the last peanut in the bottom of the tin.

I see from your profile that you're a driver. If you have any doubt about what I'm saying, stop by and talk to a couple of the marshals or rescue crew at the next race you're at.

[EvilPumpkin]

Gah - sorry Alpina, was just reading through thread again and see you're a marshal as well - blame lack of morning coffee! Assume you're already aware of all of the above in that case.