Super Sebring 2022

[joeb]

It's super thanks for asking!

We could have separate threads for the WEC race and the IMSA race, but that seems a bit redundant. I'm putting this thread here because I didn't know if it was a better fit in the ACO or North American sub-forums. The sanctioning bodies really should have consulted with us before combining race weekends and upcoming rulesets to make sure they are following our forum organizational structure!

WEC has already had practice and IMSA starts thursday.

EVENT SCHEDULE

[joeb]

Free Practice 1 Results

Glick on top but times were slower than the prologue for nearly every proto.

[canaglia]

FP2 was dry and I'm wondering what's the deal for lmps/LMH teams to sandbag at this point? Just few days ago in same conditions lmp2 were able to run in 1.48... bop isn't going to change day by night now.
Will toyota be able to recover 6 seconds tomorrow to stay on par with dpi performances? Basically lmp2+ cars frozen since 2018 or 2019...

[seanyb505]

I was going to put it in north America but leave the title as an open invitation for the yuropeans.

[Adam43]

No sandbagging now, just people running their programs. And, due to the nature of the cars and testing, as always, we’ll have more gain between practice and competitive sessions. And there is stint lengths in the race etc…

Looking fine for Hypercar. And if it isn’t, because they are pretty close to LMP2 so maybe it doesn’t quite work out, then that’s good too.

Looking forward to getting there. See the cars, catching up with people, and enjoying the racing.

[bella]

it’s not sandbagging if you’re looking at race pace. you’re more likely to spot some quali representative times in imsa free practice when the bronze guy gets fresh tyres and no fuel to have a crack with. wec/elms (to a greater degree than imsa) is going to be lots of full tank/new tyres combinations, or low fuel/scrubbed tyres after driver changes or at the start of sessions.

you certainly won’t be able to tell just by looking at a timesheet. if you build a run plan from the lap by lap breakdown you might be able to have a guess at fuel loads but you’d have to make a lot of other assumptions.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by bella

it’s not sandbagging if you’re looking at race pace. you’re more likely to spot some quali representative times in imsa free practice when the bronze guy gets fresh tyres and no fuel to have a crack with. wec/elms (to a greater degree than imsa) is going to be lots of full tank/new tyres combinations, or low fuel/scrubbed tyres after driver changes or at the start of sessions.

you certainly won’t be able to tell just by looking at a timesheet. if you build a run plan from the lap by lap breakdown you might be able to have a guess at fuel loads but you’d have to make a lot of other assumptions.

Points of view... despite the timelaps marked, I don't think anyone really tried to reach the limit during tests, now they are running even slower... I know FP is actually used to test setup, stint length, tires behaviour etc... but running however so slower...
Question: Do you think toyota will be able to qualify in the range of 1.45?

[bella]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Points of view... despite the timelaps marked, I don't think anyone really tried to reach the limit during tests, now they are running even slower... I know FP is actually used to test setup, stint length, tires behaviour etc... but running however so slower...
Question: Do you think toyota will be able to qualify in the range of 1.45?

i’m not familiar with the track conditions and tyre performance on this circuit to be able to even pretend to know the answer to that, not sure any of us are. i suspect the drivers and team won’t know till after quali but 1.45 looks a bit too quick, doesn’t it?

it’s got to be an interesting one to prepare for - the risk for drivers who don’t know every bump and crease in the circuit is high, but you need them to find a steady race pace. i wonder if the full/empty difference in handling is even greater here?

i’m most interested in how quick the dpis will be relative to the toyotas/glicks given how much more running and experience they have with this circuit.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by bella

i’m not familiar with the track conditions and tyre performance on this circuit to be able to even pretend to know the answer to that, not sure any of us are. i suspect the drivers and team won’t know till after quali but 1.45 looks a bit too quick, doesn’t it?

it’s got to be an interesting one to prepare for - the risk for drivers who don’t know every bump and crease in the circuit is high, but you need them to find a steady race pace. i wonder if the full/empty difference in handling is even greater here?

i’m most interested in how quick the dpis will be relative to the toyotas/glicks given how much more running and experience they have with this circuit.

I'm not talking about race pace, that may be influenced by lots of different and not always predictable factors, and I don't even think is a big matter of experience since in the past europen teams like rebellion have been faster than US teams in uncharted for them american tracks.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying but if a 2017 spec lmp2 with road derivated engine will prove to be quicker than a 2021 full bespoke hybrid prototype, it proves how failure LMH tech rules are if we focus on performances and costs... take a different point of view for the matter and imagine if 2022 spec f1 would be way more expensive but slower than japanese super formula cars...

[Adam43]

21 drivers racing in both the big races in Super Sebring.
https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/s...ay-notebook-2/

[bella]

why is it terrible for a p2 in 2017 to be faster than a p1 today though?

[chernaudi]

Well, the LMH cars would be faster if they weren't so heavy. But capping aero and jacking up minimum weight are the best way to lower costs without resorting to spec racing.


I think it's fair to remember that it took until last year or the year before for DPI cars to lap Sebring as fast as a 2006 or 2007 Audi R10.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Well, the LMH cars would be faster if they weren't so heavy. But capping aero and jacking up minimum weight are the best way to lower costs without resorting to spec racing.


I think it's fair to remember that it took until last year or the year before for DPI cars to lap Sebring as fast as a 2006 or 2007 Audi R10.

That proves my point, it's ok and normal if a next gen of cars is as fast if not faster than previous one costing much less, it's just wrong if a much more expensive and advanced next gen of cars is slower than the previous gen (which cost much less and had development freeze).

[seanyb505]

With the first couple practice sessions in for both series, DPi running around high 1:46 for the top time, LMH high 1:49 (Glick from FP1).

I think Dpi will qualify around 1:45, maybe high 1:44 if someone gets a great lap.

Usually I would say Toyota would find time to be a second clear of their rivals after qualifying, but they appear pretty far back based on fastest practice time over one lap. I don't think an LMH pole of 1:48, maybe 1:47 is out of the question. But I don't think Toyota's going to find 3-4 seconds at Sebring. We'll find out tonight. Having said all that, I'm sure Toyota will handle itself better in race conditions.

Tomorrow will be a nice, hot and sunny Florida spring day with no significant chance of rain until late in the race. Saturday should be more of the same. Track conditions should be pretty similar for both races.

[Fogelhund]

Just my opinion, but Hypercars are too slow.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

With the first couple practice sessions in for both series, DPi running around high 1:46 for the top time, LMH high 1:49 (Glick from FP1).

I think Dpi will qualify around 1:45, maybe high 1:44 if someone gets a great lap.

Usually I would say Toyota would find time to be a second clear of their rivals after qualifying, but they appear pretty far back based on fastest practice time over one lap. I don't think an LMH pole of 1:48, maybe 1:47 is out of the question. But I don't think Toyota's going to find 3-4 seconds at Sebring. We'll find out tonight. Having said all that, I'm sure Toyota will handle itself better in race conditions.

Tomorrow will be a nice, hot and sunny Florida spring day with no significant chance of rain until late in the race. Saturday should be more of the same. Track conditions should be pretty similar for both races.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Just my opinion, but Hypercars are too slow.

This combined event is great for IMSA and the ACO to see how the Hypercars perform on the same track as current DPi's. IMSA has so much data on the current cars and once they start testing the perfomance of the GTP's they will have a pretty good idea on pace vs the current cars. I think it can only help when trying to put LMH and GTP in the same race together next year.

Also, RVDZ is fast and leads first practice for Caddy:

http://results.imsa.com/Results/22_2...actice%201.PDF

1:46.756 for Renger

1:49.498 for the fastest IMSA spec P2


EDIT: FP3 for the WEC just finished

1:49.261 to lead the way for Glick
1:49.745 for top WEC spec P2

FP3 results http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...actice%203.PDF

[bella]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Just my opinion, but Hypercars are too slow.

agree, after seeing the dpi times from practice today. perhaps they've decided that it's bad for the racing to have the hypercars so far ahead as per last year, and are trying to bring it together a bit more to see if it works in time for more entries appearing.

i suspect there's a bigger picture at play with this that we're not privy to.

personally, i don't really care about year on year pace. for me, nothing needs to get faster or be faster than anything else. comparison is an interesting exercise but nothing more. there's far more important things to be angry about than how fast racing cars go.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by bella

personally, i don't really care about year on year pace. for me, nothing needs to get faster or be faster than anything else. comparison is an interesting exercise but nothing more. there's far more important things to be angry about than how fast racing cars go.

I'm 100% with you there. The race is the exciting part of the event and the endurance of who can last. I would be fine with taking away some every so often because we know the teams will tweak everything they can to be faster. A benchmark time at circuit x for the cars is fine by me, it's not F1 and it should be a sustainable business model given the lack of tobacco and other giant piles of cash to burn in the modern era

[canaglia]

I've just read that IMSA will do 2 tests for lmdh and LMH, the first at road atlanta after petit le mans and another one later on daytona with mandatory presence of LMH and lmdh who are going to run at 2023 daytona 24H.
I actually don't think any LMH will take part at this comparative tests, but I don't think it will be too hard to balance LMH and lmdh... under a technical point of view.


https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/i...ting-timeline/

[joeb]

IMSA FP2 saw times at the top drop into the 1:45 range for Derani. 1:49.6 for top P2.

http://results.imsa.com/Results/22_2...actice%202.PDF

[canaglia]

Unless to let manufacturers having a big rework and redesign of the car, the only way LMH could be made faster is to increase power... but anyway, this is last year of dpi, so aside GT500 cars, there won't be any other faster class of prototypes that could be compared to LMH/bopped lmdh.

[bella]

it's a shame because the dpis are cool. like, properly cool in the way the p2s just can't be. i guess that kind of cool is where they're heading with the hypercars and the marketing around that. you see it a little in what peugeot are doing but it's still not *quite* there yet.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by bella

it's a shame because the dpis are cool. like, properly cool in the way the p2s just can't be. i guess that kind of cool is where they're heading with the hypercars and the marketing around that. you see it a little in what peugeot are doing but it's still not *quite* there yet.

well, at least for IMSA where I don't think LMH will actually take part, lmdh/gtp conceptually will not be that different than dpi.

[joeb]

With wec qualifying in the books and the Toyotas 2 seconds off the pace of the pole winning Alpine, is something wrong or are they just going to win regardless?

In GT Keating qualified 4th. Ahead of some pro entries. Does the 50 year old car dealer from Texas need a factory job offer??? That is super impressive!

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by joeb

With wec qualifying in the books and the Toyotas 2 seconds off the pace of the pole winning Alpine, is something wrong or are they just going to win regardless?

In GT Keating qualified 4th. Ahead of some pro entries. Does the 50 year old car dealer from Texas need a factory job offer??? That is super impressive!

The man is committed to his craft and practices hard. That's why I would love to see him in a SGR hypercar or the GT3 car.

Just still need that flag to be offered to fly at the track.