2 Litre Supercars

[Peter_Maxwwell]

I am a massive fan of the V8 Supercars. Always have been, always will be, but how about introducing a support category that has 'world appeal'. They are uniquely Australian, and that is great, as it's sets us apart from the rest of the world, but what about introducing a breeder category, but that has no V8...

I know, the V8's have got fantastic support categories as it is, and there are plenty of very capable teams out there that I think would jump at the chance to build a new type of car...

Ford versus Holden. Focus versus Astra. Have it run like the V8 Supercars. Broaden the appeal of "Supercars" to those who dont like V8's... not that there are that many...

Keep everything spec, tyres, wheels, brakes, dampers, etc etc. Even spec engine components to keep costs down. I would think that aiming to be able to run a level 1 team should be the same as running in the development series.

Young drivers, engineers, mechanics etc, have the chance to show off their talents to the same crowds... not that they don't already with the other support categories, but the other support categories don't allow many freedoms in terms of technical freedoms with the cars, to allow anyone but the driver to shine..

A lot of cost saving could be made by adopting parts like body kits and the like from the WTCC ..... http://www.fiawtcc.com/2k5/GalleryV3...me=MONZA&id=8#

I think it would be great to see AVESCO and TEGA do another category...

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

[aj_308]

Ford still sell the Focus?
I haven't sighted one in months??

[Peter_Maxwwell]

I believe there is a new model due late this year, early next....

[lookleft]

Neither Ford nor Holden will dilute their V8 budget to run in 2L and there are no bigger buckets available so it's not going to happen.

Despite what some may think the whole show is just a big, rolling brand awareness campaign. Once the names Ford and Holden are guaranteed to be plastered all over the television for a couple of hours every second weekend then the big two are happy - the marketing people wouldn't care if they were racing Daewoo's and Mazda's, as long as they had Holden and Ford stickers on them. Point is the market is saturated already so no where is the return? Look how long it has taken Ford to commit to the ARC - different market, different demographic with relatively low cost with decent returns is terms of success.

Finally, AVESCO would need a name change to AVEATLSCO and Tony's lisp would have nightmare with that one

[stoned pony]

As an aside to this I have long thought the "development series" (Konicas, HPDC or whatever you want to call them) should probably have been six-cylinder cars so other manufacturers could be attracted to come and play.

[Raglanparade]

Yeah i agree.

The development series needs to be a step down. Ok, theve added an extra 100kg this year in ballast, but they are essentially ex main series cars.

I think the reason the development series works is because the cars are available, but what about the engines.

Could they possibly drop the development series engines to standard V6 or maybe even a Super Touring Race Spec 2ltr, and drop the weight.

Then you could go back to calling it the Lite series.. Smaller Engines, Lighter Cars, But the shells are the same size and can still be purchased as ex V8 Supercars.

[mmciau]

We do not want to regress to those years where we had 2 litre buzz boxes.

A full blown 2 litre campaign is just as expensive as the "used and superseded" (hand-me-down) V8s

mike

[DKGandBH]

I'd just like to point out that "2 Litre Supercar" is an oxymoron !

DKGandBH
<donning flame suit>

[aj_308]

A 2 litre engine lugging around such a big car would likely be a very stressed engine, probably costing more to upkeep than the current engine.

[Rombles1]

Originally Posted by aj_308

A 2 litre engine lugging around such a big car would likely be a very stressed engine, probably costing more to upkeep than the current engine.

You mean a bit like the Statesman being exported to Korea - engine options are 3.6L or 2.8L! That is a lot of car to try pushing around Seoul with a 2.8L engine!

But then, that is off the point.

OK, back on the topic (sort of - as close as I ever get!).....

Holden are bringing out a 2L Turbo Astra Coupe at the end of this year - Sounds to me that this would be a good opportunity for them to market it - you know, try to sell "his" and "hers" racecars. (She can have the Calais, I want the Turbo Astra!)

[Peter_Maxwwell]

The whole problem with super touring in the first place was that is was so expensive. I think a 2 litre series would work in Australia if cars could be built here for the price of a good dev series car - i.e - 200k. You would aim to have around 250 - 270 hp, which with new engines these days is not hard to obtain - use a standard induction system and a spec camshaft etc etc - this would keep development costs to a minimum. If everything is spec, the racing will be close - if the cars look as exciting as the v8's (hard i know) and looked new (not like supertouring where everyone was running old cars - some fast, some slow)

Close racing draws crowd, which in turn draws sponsorship, tv etc. If it was thought out properly in the first place, I think there would be room for it...

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Maxwwell

If everything is spec, the racing will be close - if the cars look as exciting as the v8's (hard i know) and looked new (not like supertouring where everyone was running old cars - some fast, some slow)

Over the year Super Touring did provide close competitively, arguably more so than what the other championship did, so I dont think everything would be needed to be spec. Also Peter I know it down to personal opinion but are you saying that BMW 320, Audi A4, Renault Laguna, Peugeot 406 didnt look exciting ?

Originally Posted by Peter_Maxwwell

Close racing draws crowd, which in turn draws sponsorship, tv etc. If it was thought out properly in the first place, I think there would be room for it...

Not in todays society. Look at F1, it doesn't provide the most excititng racing imaginable, but they rake in crowds, $$$, like no other.

[bahodie]

I like the idea of Astras and Focuses (or Focii?) zipping around...The development series is like the St Vinnies version of supercars (hand-me-downs) so why not have something new and fresh and....appealing to the ladies!

[Crash Test]

Blow it, top idea! If everyone has their own class of racing, everyone gets a trophy and goes home happy! Why don't we cull a few classes that are deadwood before we go making new ones?

[gts300]

Originally Posted by Crash Test

Blow it, top idea! If everyone has their own class of racing, everyone gets a trophy and goes home happy! Why don't we cull a few classes that are deadwood before we go making new ones?

That is the most sensible thing I've heard anyone say here in a long time.

I did think that AJ had it right - 2 litres are just starter motors! Although I'll be the first to admit that BTCC has provided close entertaining racing. Their current motors sound like real rocket ships.

There is something that been puzzeling me for some time now; the two teams that were the class act of Australian super touring (Jones & Morris) both moved to Supercars, perhaps I was over optomistic, but I expected them to be at the pointy end. Sadly I was mistaken.

Was this a real indication of the quality of Super Touring here; a real indication of the depth of the Supercar field or did they loose too much budget to maintain their quality?

[Peter_Maxwwell]

I think Super Touring was a fantastic category, especially overseas in Europe, but the fact is that only a few teams in Australia could have competitive cars at the one time!! The costs for engines were as high as the v8 series. That was the reason for its demise.

The cars looked fantastic both on and off the track, and if this could be replicated again, but with competitive cost effective racing, it would be a success no doubt...

[WebberForWDC]

Haven't you just described the BTCC regulations, with all these control bits etc.? You know the series with the entry list of about 13 cars unfortunately.

Either Super 2000 or nothing, surely? If the teams want to run an extra non-V8 series, surely the Performance cars is the way to go I think. A NA 2L is not a whole lot faster than an Evo or a big HSV... or I mean that extra not-that-expensive (eg. bigger turbo, racier V8 engine bits!) performance tweaks could be a allowed in Performance cars and you would get the same speed as 2L tourers.

2L race-cars touring car racing is just a lot of cash for cars that aren't very fast... Unless you have the draw card of a "World Championship" title (or other european series with manufacturer interest like Volvo in Sweden), a turbo, spaceframe or some sort of V8 or something in my opinion is needed as the basis for a series in my opinion, so the product has got a bit more of a drawcard factor.

At the end of the day TWR (if they were building Volvos, local Vectras/Astras were hardly going to be produced to promote HSV which does not produce V8 Vectras/Astras !), 888, and Prodrive would not be in business in Australia if Australia's touring car racing was 2L and entailed outdated year-old cars being shipped to Australia and run on limited budgets by hardly interested manufacturers!

[racer69]

Super 2000 would be all well and good, except it would probably end up like Super Touring in Australia (and has been mentioned above about the V8 Development Series) in that it would rely on overseas cars.

A better idea i think would be to have a 2 litre class in the Australian Performance Car Championship.

[Peter_Maxwwell]

either way i think it would have to be unique to Australia, like the V8 Supercars.

Although the super2000 rules, along with the BTCC seem to be a step in the right direction. Keep majority of componants spec, the cars will still be fast, but the costs will be maintained somewhat.

The problem with the performance category is that it is very hard to maintain equal footing. They have done it pretty well, but cars have different advantages, which some may see as positive, but in the end it will mean everyone will go to a certain manufacturer, like has been happening with Mitsubishi, and people get bored and it turns into a one make series which then dies. It happens over and over.

Again, I think it should be limited for Ford and Holden, and let it be run by Avesco or whoever runs the whole V8 circus. I like other manufacturers competing in other series, but I think Ford and Holden have proved their commitment. Look at the V8 Utes, Aussie Racing Cars, Formula Ford etc..

How many "factory" teams do you see competing in other series?? They all seem to jump out when ever they feel happy, and the categry then loses all support!!

[Peter_Maxwwell]

Don't forget what made them the popular big sellers in the first place... do you think people would have bought Commodore if John Smith raced it and finished mid pack at Bathurst in 1979????? V8 Supercars is about selling cars the next day... it's an old trick.. Put a Toyota Avalon V8 Supercar on pole for Bathurst and see how an ugly front wheel drive car sells like hot cakes!!!!

[Docker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Maxwwell

Don't forget what made them the popular big sellers in the first place... do you think people would have bought Commodore if John Smith raced it and finished mid pack at Bathurst in 1979????? V8 Supercars is about selling cars the next day... it's an old trick.. Put a Toyota Avalon V8 Supercar on pole for Bathurst and see how an ugly front wheel drive car sells like hot cakes!!!!

This is a very very basic marketing concept.

Motorsport is about brand awareness, it does not DIRECTLY sell cars. It help consumers develop ideas about the vehicle. People are aware that Ford's go fast because of ambrose. If the AU was sucessful on the race track it did not mean showroom sucess. The BA is succesful because it is a Good car. Consumers are not stupid and the quality of the product is taken into account along with the marketing.

[Peter_Maxwwell]

okay, so don't call them supercars...

but i still think a spectacle could be made from them... I think they'd be a great feeder series for drivers, mechanics and engineers to the main series, and this is what it should marketed as....

The problem with the dev series, is they are still v8's, so they pretty much cost as much to run.... leaving minimal funds for other things... like employing young and up coming talent....

they would never take over from the v8's, that would be impossible!!

[aj_308]

exactly.
Anyone unfortunate enough to drive a commodore 4 knows what I mean..

I think the probalm would be finding people with enough connection to their car to follow it in a racing series.
Although the two mentioned are certainly popular sellers, i dont believe the people that buy them are really "in to" them
Go down to the newsagent and see how many "street astra" magazines you can find.
Commodore and Falcon are popular cars, people like them.
People are proud of what car they drive.
V8Supercar is all about this.

[emjaya]

An ugly car won't sell no matter who makes it,but if the Avalon was a better looking car with rear wheel drive and the Landcuisers 4.5 litre V8 as an option,then how well would it sell?

Jones & Morris-big fish in a small pond in Super Tourers,small fish in big pond in V8's

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by emjaya

Jones & Morris-big fish in a small pond in Super Tourers,small fish in big pond in V8's

Is factory input a factor?