Entry Levels at Historic Race Meetings

[coppice]

I am at HSCC Cadwell this weekend and the entry is ok, but hardly oversubscribed - a shame as it is one of my favourite meetings , and at my favourite circuit of all. Lots of reasons why things are thin - but one not mentioned so far is that so any circuits and racing clubs are fishing in the same pond . There's more than enough cars to go round but not if so many clubs are essentially targeting the same demographic of cars and drivers . And nearly every circuit hypes its home grown 'Historic Festival ' , as if nomenclature alone will attract Silverstone Classic or Goodwood Revival/MM scale entries and crowds .

[Lancsbreaker]

I noted that even my preferred organiser, CSCC, has some relatively thin grids at Brands this weekend. Of course their Spa weekend is coming up so people may be loath to risk their cars before that simply to get dizzy at Brands Indy ( ) but the number of different organisers trying to latch on to CSCC's success over recent years may well have an effect.

[coppice]

Indeed - I was involved with CSCC for a couple of years and still do the odd thing with them . It seems to me that they set the template for many rival organisers and the combination of 40minute pit stop races and no championships was a winning one. I'm sorry to hear of thinner grids- I remember a couple of CSCC events at Brands and Silverstone with literally hundreds of entrants in overflowing paddocks . Fabulous sight.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by coppice

Indeed - I was involved with CSCC for a couple of years and still do the odd thing with them . It seems to me that they set the template for many rival organisers and the combination of 40minute pit stop races and no championships was a winning one. I'm sorry to hear of thinner grids- I remember a couple of CSCC events at Brands and Silverstone with literally hundreds of entrants in overflowing paddocks . Fabulous sight.

I don’t know what the entry list is like for the “classics” series tomorrow but I didn’t think that the grids at Brands today for CSCC were that thin. Thin for CSCC, perhaps, but I think there are several clubs that would like 23 Mag 7s racing and 20 Special Saloons & Modsports etc etc.

I am not sure that racing on the Friday of the “Jubilee weekend” was that great an idea, either. I know several people who were firmly told that they were expected to attend family/ friends/ village/ street functions this weekend (for some strange reason) and that took precedent!!! Her Majesty has a lot to answer for!

[Peter Mallett]

We are somewhat off topic but another consideration may be age. A lot of drivers are now retiring from work and pensions, although good, don't often cover motorsport.

[midgetman]

That's a very good point, but why are they not being replaced by younger drivers? Is it that the cars of the 80s don't fire up the imagination like those of the 60s, which are now out of the reach of the "average" driver?



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[midgetman]

I need to qualify that last statement. When I was selling racewear my biggest customer base was late 40-early 50 somethings driving the cars of their youth. "I watched MGB/Cortina/Alfa back in the day and now I can afford to race one."

Now 40/50 somethings would have been watching Renault Clio, BMW County Championship etc which doesn't exactly stir the blood.

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[Smartie]

Interestingly Historic Grand Prix Cars Association (HGPCA) grids are over subscribed this year. This is obviously high end, grid entry fees are about as high as it gets for amateur racing.
Most people are suffering financially, this is no doubt going to have a big impact. Sadly it will probably only get worse. The answer from the circuits & race organizers will be to do nothing but keep on increasing race entry fees.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Now 40/50 somethings would have been watching Renault Clio, BMW County Championship etc which doesn't exactly stir the blood

As a child of the 1980s (and with very embryonic plans to sprint a car from my childhood), I do wonder if part of the issue might be that most cars that a 40 something might aspire to race still compete in 'modern' racing. There are plenty of Clios, early 1990s BMWs competing but, as yet, few places to compete on a historic meeting.

A random observation is that many of the cars that competed at Combe in the inaugural Griffiths Formula race in the sixties were about 10 to 15 years old.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Mike Crow

Perhaps we should hand the whole lot over to MSV and let Dr.Jonathon sort it out!

Woah! No thanks. I think he (MSVR) is part of the problem, not the solution.
Look at what has happened with the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting this year. The long standing date has been changed and the grids sold out to, presumably, the highest bidder. No room for the normal popular grid mix this year.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Woah! No thanks. I think he (MSVR) is part of the problem, not the solution.
Look at what has happened with the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting this year. The long standing date has been changed and the grids sold out to, presumably, the highest bidder. No room for the normal popular grid mix this year.

To be fair, the date changed emanated from Silverstone moving the Classic date to the bank holiday weekend. It makes no sense to try and run the two meetings on the same weekend.

In terms of the meeting's content, I think it had gone a little stale. To my mind it was a normal HSCC clubby dressed up as a 'mini-festival'. The new mix of races is very interesting and could potentially have a meeting that deserves the Gold Cup name.

It's also worth noting that HSCC have a normal club meeting the week after the Gold Cup so none of their categories miss racing there.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by kipper

It's also worth noting that HSCC have a normal club meeting the week after the Gold Cup so none of their categories miss racing there.

Yes, but the new date is now just a clubbie rather than the elevated event the members deserve.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Yes, but the new date is now just a clubbie rather than the elevated event the members deserve.

What yould you have them do? Silverstone decided to move their Classic to the August bank holiday weekend without giving a damn about the knock-on effects, one of which is that it was no longer viable to have the Gold Cup that weekend. I struggle to see how that is MSV or HSCC's fault.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Yes, but the new date is now just a clubbie rather than the elevated event the members deserve.

I understand that, but the question I'd ask is why HSCC members need an 'elevated' event?

For many years, they have been good quality, fun, club events that have been tremendously good to attend. Also, for the last couple of years HSCC's Snetterton event has been branded the Jim Russell Trophy. Whilst I think it's great that tribute is paid to him, 'elevating' the event hasn't resulted in notably bigger grids.

I'd also suggest that the likes of CTCRC, HRDC and VSCC seem to exist satisfactorily without a calendar dominated by marquee events.

[GORDON STREETER]

Probably put down to expense as things are definitely getting worse for the "normal racers". Motor racing has always been expensive and the further you go up the ladder it doesn't get any better especially with increases in fuel (not only for road and racing but gas and electricity) that makes "everything else" more expensive. I was lucky in my motor racing and had a lot of people that spent a lot of money to help me, as I couldn't have possibly carried on for years.
The diehards in the majority of clubbie motor racing in the last 50 odd years that have made up the fields have never been "mega rich" and are now disappearing as they get older/retiring and a lot now have less disposable income.

[JPS1]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Probably put down to expense as things are definitely getting worse for the "normal racers". Motor racing has always been expensive and the further you go up the ladder it doesn't get any better especially with increases in fuel (not only for road and racing but gas and electricity) that makes "everything else" more expensive. I was lucky in my motor racing and had a lot of people that spent a lot of money to help me, as I couldn't have possibly carried on for years.
The diehards in the majority of clubbie motor racing in the last 50 odd years that have made up the fields have never been "mega rich" and are now disappearing as they get older/retiring and a lot now have less disposable income.

I agree with all the points made but the overall cost of just attending a Hscc weekend meeting for me these days is £1000( entry fee , fuel to get there and accommodation) that’s before I spend anything on the car .
With tyres now costing £1200 a set , seat belts £200+ etc etc even prior to inflation effects it means for the average club racer whether employed or retired who form a good proportion of the grid are at risk of being priced out of the sport

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by JPS1

I agree with all the points made but the overall cost of just attending a Hscc weekend meeting for me these days is £1000( entry fee , fuel to get there and accommodation) that’s before I spend anything on the car .
With tyres now costing £1200 a set , seat belts £200+ etc etc even prior to inflation effects it means for the average club racer whether employed or retired who form a good proportion of the grid are at risk of being priced out of the sport

When I was doing the TOCA support races back in the 90s the cost was between 1&2k for the weekends racing and I was doing it on a shoestring budget compared to several others in the series.
I think a lot of people downplay on how much they actually spend on motorsport, but I suppose money is there to be spent on what we like as long as it doesn't impact on their family life, unfortunately it does and I personally know of a couple of cases where they have lost their house and partner/wife through it.

[Peter Mallett]

I'm on my phone at the moment but when I get to my lappy I'll move these posts to a new thread, we can then concentrate on the Thruxton discussion here.

[GCCheddaris]

The reason the Silverstone Classic was moved back to August Bank Holiday was because the British Moto GP was brought forward from last years August Bank Holiday date to the first weekend in August this year. Apparently Silverstone couldn't manage all three of their major events being held in the space of five weeks, British GP being on July 3rd, hence the Silverstone Classic being moved back and the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting losing it's Bank Holiday slot.

[zefarelly]

We've raced with most series over the years, they all have their attractions. Everyone's had a 'festival' and offered longer races or double headers.
There is no shortage of choice, if anything too much.

Bottom line for most must be cost and time. .I keep looking and don't know how I ever justified doing it. I went out pre season and blew the cobwebs off, did nearly 2 hours round Goodwood on the day, packed up and went home. I really don't have any great urge to go racing for some reason, just seems like an ever increasing load of hassle and expense to do the same thing again and again.

I've always preferred a long weekend away and a trip into Europe, which currently is even more hassle/expense on top and I just can't be bothered.

In addition to that I've been spoilt in the past, I've taken my car as far as I can without turning it into something it's not. . . . and it gets less competitive by the year. . I guess I'm a bit of an oddity in having a car I just like rather than just buying an affordable or competitive car regardless. . . but I think I'm fairly typical of an historic racer in recent years ? it's a hobby.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I guess I'm a bit of an oddity in having a car I just like rather than just buying an affordable or competitive car regardless. . . but I think I'm fairly typical of an historic racer in recent years ? it's a hobby.

I think you are very typical of what historic racers were 25 years ago, Joe. I think I was the same. I have no formal engineering or mechanical training but picked up bits and pieces here and there by being involved with the building and preparation of all the cars I've raced. The engineering/mechanical skills were provided by my brother with whom I raced since the mid 1960s. And I think that was very typical of the average club racer. If you wanted to race and didn't have the technical knowhow you had family or a mate to help out. The arrive and drive amateur racer paid for that privelege but at a higher level than mere club racing. F3, Formula Junior and GT racing spring to mind.

[zefarelly]

the proportion of self prepared owner/drivers has dropped significantly, the standard pf preparation has gone up (not necessarily linked) and the level of professionalism has gone up.

certain elements of 'professionalism' are less desirable than others, thats anojhter story, but it does put some people off.

All of the above have arguably made historics less accessible, especially when you consider most normal people have less in their pockets to spare at the end of the month than they did 15-20 years ago.

I don't think anyone wants to see tatty old bangers, but just as the next generation of guys think they may have a go my guess is there will be a smaller pool who can justify it. Certainly the only way I could afford it was by DIY, and that was a big part of the appeal. The younger generations seem to be less practically skilled if for no other reason than things aren't designed/built to be repaired any more.

[356sc]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

the proportion of self prepared owner/drivers has dropped significantly, the standard pf preparation has gone up (not necessarily linked) and the level of professionalism has gone up.

certain elements of 'professionalism' are less desirable than others, thats anojhter story, but it does put some people off.

All of the above have arguably made historics less accessible, especially when you consider most normal people have less in their pockets to spare at the end of the month than they did 15-20 years ago.

I don't think anyone wants to see tatty old bangers, but just as the next generation of guys think they may have a go my guess is there will be a smaller pool who can justify it. Certainly the only way I could afford it was by DIY, and that was a big part of the appeal. The younger generations seem to be less practically skilled if for no other reason than things aren't designed/built to be repaired any more.

Completely agree with this Zeff!

Appreciate that the Peter Auto events are at the “top end” of racing events so is likely to attract wealthier folk, but looking at the 60s series, there used to be a number of cars that were raced, prepared and supported by the owner/driver plus family..…I think we are now the last of these.

Most of the cars are now supported by massive teams with seemingly endless resources and have a professional/semi professional as the 2nd driver.

The whole set up is now much more professional with the main focus being on trying to win, hence why cobras, Daytona coupe (copies), e types and lotus 26r are now the predominant cars on the grid… as a consequence amateur enthusiasts who race historic cars just for the hell of it with no chance ever of winning (why else would we try to make a 356 go stupidly fast?!) are being squeezed out.

Does make it a hell of a lot more satisfying when you get a good result though!!

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by 356sc

Completely agree with this Zeff!

Appreciate that the Peter Auto events are at the “top end” of racing events so is likely to attract wealthier folk, but looking at the 60s series, there used to be a number of cars that were raced, prepared and supported by the owner/driver plus family..…I think we are now the last of these.



The whole set up is now much more professional with the main focus being on trying to win, hence why cobras, Daytona coupe (copies), e types and lotus 26r are now the predominant cars on the grid… as a consequence amateur enthusiasts who race historic cars just for the hell of it with no chance ever of winning (why else would we try to make a 356 go stupidly fast?!) are being squeezed out.

Does make it a hell of a lot more satisfying when you get a good result though!!

Amen to that. I had a few years being competitive in TC 63 against the Jags etc, but I was murdering the car mechanically to do it, needed a major service after every race. . . .When I learnt the latest TC engined Cortinas have a gearbox every race and an engine lasts 4 hours my heart sank. . BoT that has to be a deterrant to the majority.

PA meeting at Spa in May/June is great, night racing, snow, what more could you ask for

[Gerard C]

Agree with you both. With a good E Type you're now competing in a sort of B class, no Cobra no laurels. May be a 26 R is the good choice for an amateur.