Drivers and Marshals (split from Yellow Flag thread)

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by alf

funnilyenough that also happened to me at brands some time back. I got it wrong at paddock and reversed into the gravel, but only about 2 feet in. this was a sitting duck for other cars and I expected a red instantly....
it took me moaning at the observer 2 laps to get him to call the c.o.c. and it was only the threat of holding him responsible if my car got swiped, and or another driver getting injured as a result.

even then it took a further lap before the red was deployed!!

This I find very hard to believe....750MC meeting given that you are or were a Locost driver?

Those of us that are observers at Paddock bend on a regular basis (and I think you've now got 3 of us on this thread) would regard any car that is 1/2 in 1/2 out the gravel as an immediate stop request.

Probably the observer had already called race control before you got to him? Remember the red coming coming out is the CoC's decision - not the man on the scene. Recent history would also suggest that most CoC's (but not all) look at the CCTV before making their decision.

Similarly,it is not unknown for the CoC to request a continuous display of a yellow flag at the top of paddock if there's only a couple of minutes of practice/1 lap of race left to run.

Might I also add that any driver moaning and threatening to hold me (or any of my team) responsible would earn an immediate 2nd report regards his attitude.

So Alf, the correct course of action would have been to go and see the CoC and ask him to explain the sequence of events in your incident.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Basic rule of incident marshalling: keep the car between you & oncoming traffic. Why? Because then, if another car comes off it hits the car, not the marshal(s).

Not necessarily. Wouldn't it depend on how close the marshall was to the car and how hard another car was to hit it?

[Chigley]

Originally Posted by Slippy Diff

Not necessarily. Wouldn't it depend on how close the marshall was to the car and how hard another car was to hit it?

SD from all your comments it's rather apparent that you haven't spent any time on the bank! why not come and play with us for a day and see how you feel then? A day packed with known bad boys should be enough.

Ask any of the drivers who belong to this forum and also marshal when they have time to spare, there are quite a few.

I also note from your profile that

I like to think of myself as the instigator of deep and meaningful conversations on 10 Tenths.....

you're certainly being true to form.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Slippy Diff

Not necessarily. Wouldn't it depend on how close the marshall was to the car and how hard another car was to hit it?

Your point being? Where would you rather be - in front of, or behind, a car which was hit by another car?

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Your point being? Where would you rather be - in front of, or behind, a car which was hit by another car?

Somewhere along the line you seem to have read that I mentioned standing in front of a beached/damaged car. I was simply asking if taking cover behind the beached/damaged car is dangerous. Crouching behind a car that then gets hit by another doing 80mph (eg) doesn't sound particularly good to me.

[chezza]

Originally Posted by Slippy Diff

Somewhere along the line you seem to have read that I mentioned standing in front of a beached/damaged car. I was simply asking if taking cover behind the beached/damaged car is dangerous. Crouching behind a car that then gets hit by another doing 80mph (eg) doesn't sound particularly good to me.

Noooo! Not crouching, standing. Couching behind a stationary car is silly, but part of our training as Dave has said is to keep the car between you and the traffic. If you see that something is coming towards the car you are pushing, then you can run away from it and the moving car will hit the stationary one, no damage to squishy marshal. If your between the two cars thats one squished marshal. Remember MARSHALS ARE SQUISHY cars aren't, they can always be repaired...people tend not to be repairable. Yes racing isn't cheap but the loss/damage to a car is preferable to damage to a person no matter what excuses people give.

To any driver who doesn't slow down under yellows you try being on the edge of the track trying to sort out a rolled car and its driver when a pack of clios comes hurtling at you at full pace...its bloody scary and I woudn't recommend it. Believe me it will soon change your mind about slowing down.

One of our marshals regularly races and gets told off for slowing down to much...when the other drivers press him about the situation he tells them "well next weekend i'm going to be the guy in the gravel dealing with the car...I know what its like to have cars come at full chat at me and I don't like it so why should I inflict it on other marshals?!"

[alf]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

This I find very hard to believe....750MC meeting given that you are or were a Locost driver?

Those of us that are observers at Paddock bend on a regular basis (and I think you've now got 3 of us on this thread) would regard any car that is 1/2 in 1/2 out the gravel as an immediate stop request.

Probably the observer had already called race control before you got to him? Remember the red coming coming out is the CoC's decision - not the man on the scene. Recent history would also suggest that most CoC's (but not all) look at the CCTV before making their decision.

Similarly,it is not unknown for the CoC to request a continuous display of a yellow flag at the top of paddock if there's only a couple of minutes of practice/1 lap of race left to run.

Might I also add that any driver moaning and threatening to hold me (or any of my team) responsible would earn an immediate 2nd report regards his attitude.

So Alf, the correct course of action would have been to go and see the CoC and ask him to explain the sequence of events in your incident.

sorry old boy
it doesnt matter what you find hard to believe or otherwise. I was there and know EXACTLY what happened you are mearly speculating


I think if a car is in a dangerous possition and can't be cleared without marshals gpoing on to the track then the race needs to be red flaged. end of story, safety etc

there are enough quotes from others in this thread alone to back up that what I am saying can and does happen.

As for your comment about reporting me for my "attitude"....
well I have to say that says more about you than it does about me.

if a second car had colided with mine and that driver was injured. what questions do you think would be asked at the enquirey?

I doubt that; "was the driver who had watched his car nearly get hit by 30 cars for 2 laps speaking in a nice way!!!!" would be one of them

in fact I asked extremly politly twice and it was only when I said
"I am telling you in front of witnesses ( the other marshals) that if my car gets hit then I will be holding you fully responsible." that the guy even made a call to the c.o.c.

what more could I have said?? its no use waiting till the cars been hit ad saying see I told you so. Cars cost money.

like I say I was there and dont care for the suggestion that I am making it up, there were 30 other drivers who will back me up, and no doubt video evidence from at least 2 cars!

[Slippy Diff]

Those in a position of authority at race meetings are never wrong....

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Slippy Diff

Those in a position of authority at race meetings are never wrong....

Not if you want to keep your licence anyway.

Think of it like dealing with the wife... you either just bite your tongue and smile sweetly, or you don't get to play with your favorite toy

[Slippy Diff]

Without the officials there would be no racing. However, there always seems to be a few 'jobsworths' who morph into Nazi-like mode when given a high-vis vest or somesuch.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Slippy Diff

Without the officials there would be no racing. However, there always seems to be a few 'jobsworths' who morph into Nazi-like mode when given a high-vis vest or somesuch.

Could I respectfully suggest that its comments like that support your signature Perhaps you would like to rephrase that in a way that wouldn't get you kicked out of a race meeting.

[alf]

I have to play devils advocate a bit here, in as much as; I like many other footy fans used to slate the ref whenever a decision whent the wrong way, and I do mean the wrong way ie their team kicks the ball in to touch and yet they gey the throw in.we can see it because it happens in front of us, however the ref sees it from behind so hasn't as clear a view of it etc.
however I recently started refing for my sons football team, and hard as I try, some times...
I just can't tell who's ball it should be!!!


I think sometimes officials are on a hiding to nothing,
ie 2 drivers in the office both absolutly certain that they are in the right, he has to rely on an observers version of events.
sometimes they just wont have been able to take everything in.


it is very hard to get it right every time when its a he said she said situation, but a car right on the edge of the circuit , on line, on the exit to paddock at brands is a no brainer

( or it should be)

[Stephen Green]

Going back a little to the comments that the marshals were going to be held accountable should the car have been hit by another car. I would like to clear up (sorry for the pun) the proceedure here.

The Observer (Post Chief) would radio/telephone Race Control requesting a race stop/safety car etc because in his/her opinion there was a car in a dangerous position at his/her post.

It is the Clerk of the Course who then makes the decision whether to stop the race/session or to let it run under yellow flags.

There is simply no point in ranting at the marshals on post as they do NOT have the power to take those decisions. They can only request a stop, once done it is out of their hands.

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

There is simply no point in ranting at the marshals on post as they do NOT have the power to take those decisions. They can only request a stop, once done it is out of their hands.

I think Alf's point was the observer was not making the call to race control to request a stop, and it took some 'persuasion' on his behalf for the obs to make that call. In this situation, I think asking nicely twice, then raising your objection more firmly is completely justified.

[DougK]

I think as with most things we all have our own opnions as to what is dangerous and what constitutes a car beinging in a dangerous position warranting a call for a red flag.

[EvilPumpkin]

Equally, I have to say that if any driver started making threats to me - no matter how politely they were phrased, you can bet I'd be putting in a report.

The only things I am personally responsible for are the things within my control. Anyone who doesn't understand enough about how a race meeting is run to blame me for them shouldn't be out there.

[alf]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Equally, I have to say that if any driver started making threats to me - no matter how politely they were phrased, you can bet I'd be putting in a report.

The only things I am personally responsible for are the things within my control. Anyone who doesn't understand enough about how a race meeting is run to blame me for them shouldn't be out there.

realy?


may i ask if you race yourself?


and if so are you telling me you would happily just sit there waiting for your car to get hit??


if so you are a far better man than me, because I couldn't.

I built my car
I work Very hard to keep it on track and to pay entry fees etc etc I self finance and its not cheap.

now if I spin off I am to blame I accept that.
but its not a unique occurance. in fact I bet its factored in to the training that a marshal receives? ie how to deal with a driver in the event of a spin. things to be done etc.

now if after 2 laps a car is still on the edge of the circuit and cars are not slowing down ( even if they were they could still make a mistake or have a mechanical failure etc) The driver is more than justified to ask the question. if the question is ignored what is he going to do? shrug his shoulders and hope for the best??
no he is going to make his feelings clear.

I would LOVE to hear the report that someone would make against a driver in such a situation.

I am certain that it would get all the attention it deserved.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by alf

realy?

may i ask if you race yourself?
and if so are you telling me you would happily just sit there waiting for your car to get hit??

No, I'm a marshal. I don't expect anyone to sit happily waiting for their car to be hit. What I DO expect is that someone who is racing is familiar with the chain of command at a race circuit and directs their problem to the correct person instead of taking out their frustration on whoever is closest.

Originally Posted by alf

if so you are a far better man than me, because I couldn't.

I'm better than a man in general dear. I'm a woman

Originally Posted by alf

I built my car
I work Very hard to keep it on track and to pay entry fees etc etc I self finance and its not cheap.

I'm sure you did and I have no doubt how much time and emotion you have invested in it. However, see my response in the first paragraph. If you really care so very much about it, maybe you shouldn't race it.

Originally Posted by alf

now if I spin off I am to blame I accept that.
but its not a unique occurance. in fact I bet its factored in to the training that a marshal receives? ie how to deal with a driver in the event of a spin. things to be done etc.

Yes it is. Now so far you have not offered any proof whatever that a call was not made and refused by race control. If no attempt was made to shift the car, then either it wasn't shiftable i.e. too deeply buried in gravel or there weren't enough marshals to do so, or it was not considered safe to try.

Originally Posted by alf

now if after 2 laps a car is still on the edge of the circuit and cars are not slowing down ( even if they were they could still make a mistake or have a mechanical failure etc) The driver is more than justified to ask the question. if the question is ignored what is he going to do? shrug his shoulders and hope for the best??
no he is going to make his feelings clear.

Ok make up your mind. From your original post you said that the Observer had not made a call about your car and only did so after you threatened him. Is that the case or not?

Originally Posted by alf

I would LOVE to hear the report that someone would make against a driver in such a situation.

Post x
Time: xx:xx
Race: <racing class>
Car number: <number>
Car X came off into gravel trap. Call put in. Requested <insert request here>. Request denied. Driver then demanded that we call for race stop. When we did not comply, driver became angry and threatened those on post that he would "hold them personally responsible if anything happened to his car".


Think that pretty much covers it.

Originally Posted by alf

I am certain that it would get all the attention it deserved.

Well I hope so. Because I'll tell you, I've dealt with a number of abusive drivers - ones who have threatened me with implied legal action (personally responsible, it'll be your neck if anything happens to that car blah blah blah), ones who've physically threatened me, ones that have called me names - why? Because I was doing my job. I know a lot of other marshals who have had similar problems. So yes, I would hope someone would treat it with the attention it deserves.

I accept that things are said in the heat of the moment. The majority of drivers calm down and usually apologise. If that's the case, then I wouldn't bother putting in a report.

However, where it's a case where someone has not only done this but considers that what they did was perfectly ok, then that needs to be addressed.

[alf]

Originally Posted by evilpumpkin

I'm sure you did and I have no doubt how much time and emotion you have invested in it. However, see my response in the first paragraph. If you really care so very much about it, maybe you shouldn't race it.

is this supposed to be taken seriously?
are you delibertly
a) ignoring the points I am making
b) failing to understand them
c) just trying to wind people up?

I will bow out of this one now, because its getting a bit silly.

however to the Stephen Green

I would be delighted, when would you suggest?

Incidently I owned an Indoor karting circuit for 10 years. I worked on every marshall point, managed the pit lane and (mainly ran race control). in this environment ( dealing with joe public) you are in a very very intence situation, you cant ever expect the courtesy of proper racing drivers because you can't take a licence that they dont have( so to speak)so having a proper grip on procedings is an art. with this in mind please now concider my probable attitude towards the boys in orange,,,ok yeah girls too

I am sure this will prompt a few snigers from certain circles " go karts!!!?? thats just games, "
well I am certain that keeping a race meeting going smoothly with 12 local dj's from a pirate radio station is everybit as hard to run as most club events




floodgates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by EP

I'm sure you did and I have no doubt how much time and emotion you have invested in it. However, see my response in the first paragraph. If you really care so very much about it, maybe you shouldn't race it.

Originally Posted by alf

is this supposed to be taken seriously?
floodgates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No floodgates... but I have to agree with EP, if its that precious then the race track is no place to be taking it!

[EvilPumpkin]

Well I'm a bit confused. Is he saying that no call was made regarding the incident or that a call was made but a stop was not requested?

The reason I'm asking is that I find it very difficult to believe that no call was made - that would be extremely unusual. In general, the call would be made very shortly after the incident so the driver probably wouldn't even be on the post at the time and would have no visibility of it.

I think a bit more clarity is really needed here.

In addition, before anyone can make any kind of sensible comments on this specific incident, we would also need the following:

• What stage in the program was this - was the meeting running behind time?
• What type of session was this? Race? Qualifying?
• If it was a race, at what lap did this happen and how many laps were in the race
• Had any instructions gone out to the marshals from CoC regarding how they wanted reports to be made.
• Weather conditions
• Driver conduct under yellows
• EXACT position of the car

Those are just the obvious ones that spring to mind that would govern what decision would be made on a session stop.

Sorry Chris, don't agree with your comments. If drivers want to control how a post is run, they can get off the track and onto the bank. I will not marshal any event where the drivers think they can determine what recommendation a post should make regarding an incident by threatening the people on post. No matter how polite they are.


Suggestions are fine and are always welcome. Demands and threats are not.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

In addition, before anyone can make any kind of sensible comments on this specific incident, we would also need the following:

• What stage in the program was this - was the meeting running behind time?
• What type of session was this? Race? Qualifying?
• If it was a race, at what lap did this happen and how many laps were in the race

I understand all the others, but I'm a bit confused by these three. This is a completely honest question as I don't know the answer - but.... What relevence does 1/ how well to time a meeting is running, 2/ what type of session is out on track, or 3/ how many laps are still to run in a race, have on the level of danger posed by a stranded car/driver?

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by dtype38

I understand all the others, but I'm a bit confused by these three. This is a completely honest question as I don't know the answer - but.... What relevence does 1/ how well to time a meeting is running, 2/ what type of session is out on track, or 3/ how many laps are still to run in a race, have on the level of danger posed by a stranded car/driver?

very valid question, wasn't sure how this points could differ a decision on
side of the marshalls, when apparently variations on side of the drivers
were forbidden.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

very valid question, wasn't sure how this points could differ a decision on
side of the marshalls, when apparently variations on side of the drivers
were forbidden.

As per my previous post, those specific factors are unlikely to influence what a marshal may request. They may however influence the decision that is made by the CoC - who, as has been pointed out on numerous occasions, is the person responsible for deciding whether a stop will be given. NOT the marshals requesting.

As for variations with drivers, you're right. Decisions on whether or not they pass under yellows, ignore yellows and speed up under yellows, dumping themselves into a gravel trap and onto the marshals trying to clear the original incident ARE forbidden. I believe you'll find it in the rule book under "flags".

The yellow flag is not there for you to interpret it in the best way for you to gain an advantage. It's there to protect you, your fellow drivers and the poor saps in the firing line who are trying to clean up the mess.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by dtype38

I understand all the others, but I'm a bit confused by these three. This is a completely honest question as I don't know the answer - but.... What relevence does 1/ how well to time a meeting is running, 2/ what type of session is out on track, or 3/ how many laps are still to run in a race, have on the level of danger posed by a stranded car/driver?

It wouldn't make a difference to the marshals' initial recommendation, but it could make a big difference to the decision made by the CoC or the speed of the decision being made. I have been involved in a number of situations where a red flag was delayed or refused on the grounds of time - particularly at a circuit with a curfew. I have also been in situations where the decision has been to watch for a couple of laps to see how drivers are behaving in the yellow zone before making a final decision on a red.

With regard to the number of laps, if there is only one lap left before the race has run 2/3 distance and can therefore be declared (or whatever distance is required - regs vary), then it's not unheard of for a red flag to be delayed until the relevant distance has been reached.

As for what type of session is out on the track, red flags tend to be granted more in qualifying than in racing.

The bottom line is that a marshal can ask for a stop - but it won't necessarily be granted. The factors I have mentioned are all ones I would expect to be taken into account before a decision is made in the tower.

Another question I didn't ask is Was there a safety car available?